Eckhart-Frost: Preterist Perspectives Discussion & Debate (2017)

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Sam, I see that you are “kicking against the goads” as you are trying to disprove Kingism and Prestonism. I think that you are missing a healthy Preterism that sees much of what you currently see as the same truths.


Preterist Perspectives Discussion & Debate: On Kingism and Prestonism

By Rich Eckhart, Sam Frost, et al.
August 22, 2017


Preterist Perspectives Discussion & Debate


Rich Eckhart Introduction
10/11/2017

This was neat to read through. Thanks Todd Dennis! This was right before I came to see the view that Ed Stevens clearly sees in Scripture (I mention what he sees in Scripture in this exchange.) I’ve been a (full) Preterist for over 15 years now and, I’ve never been a Covenant Eschatologist. As soon as I heard about the doctrine of the “Corporate/Collective Body View” of Max King and Don K. Preston’s Covenant Eschatology, I could see the radical error that was in this view of Preterism.

Shortly after writing the above (with Sam Frost), I was on the phone with Ed and I had pen and paper – as Ed was expounding from Scripture concerning his studies. I took all those notes home (I was at my instrument repair business at the end of the day) and, it didn’t take long (based on me already seeing the “Individual Body View” for all the years I’ve been a Preterist) to clearly see what Ed had already studied out and clearly saw (as I dug into Scripture with all the notes from Ed – I had a thousand questions when we were on the phone.)

While I saw the “Individual Body View” in the above “debate”, I had some details wrong that Ed helped me to see very clearly. Ed helped me to see why it is impossible for someone to receive their individual spiritual immortal incorruptible body while their physical body on Earth exists. I am thankful for Ed helping me to see how the individuals that made up the Just in Sheol received their individual spiritual immortal incorruptible body when they were resurrected and, how the believers that were alive and remaining at the Lord’s coming in Judgment in 70 AD (same time as the Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust) went through a bodily change (non-physical body rapture) and received their individual spiritual immortal incorruptible bodies too, and how after this one-time rapture and Resurrection, all these individuals were caught up together to be with the Lord Jesus in Heaven forever.

When a believer has their physical body on Earth expire today (post 70 AD), they too will receive their individual spiritual immortal incorruptible body at that time and go be with the Lord Jesus (and all the other saints that have gone before) in Heaven forever. The individuals who made up the Unjust in Sheol were cast into the Gehenna Fire after the Resurrection. When and unbeliever has their physical body on Earth expire today (post 70 AD), they are then cast into the Gehenna Fire. As one can tell, the “Individual Body View” is RADICALLY DIFFERENT than the “Corporate/Collective Body View.” These two views actually define death, resurrection, justification, salvation, Israel, covenant, law, and so much more… COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY!

Max King has a false gospel in his Covenant Eschatology and his “Corporate/Collective Body View.” Don K. Preston took Max King’s deadly errors and built a Covenant Eschatology systematic theology around the wrong definition of death and “body” and salvation.



Rich Eckhart

There is much of what Sam Frost believes that I do too – and it is easily included in what I see as the truth in the fulfilled view. I can see that Sam is tainted (hurt) by Kingism and Prestonism. It’s the old “baby with the bathwater” thing… (the fact that Sam is hanging out on these forums and engaged with Preterists says more than Sam may ever desire to admit.)

I see that Israel in the time of the Earthly ministry of the Lord was a radically bastardized and severely corrupted form of Israel – BUT IT WAS STILL ISRAEL NONETHELESS. The Jewish temple in the first century was a farce and mockery to Almighty God – a hollow shell of the beauty and magnificence it once represented – BUT IT WAS STILL ISRAEL’S TEMPLE. The Israelite temple – and especially the Holy of Holies – was part of the revealing process of God’s Son!

To me, it is clear – that the 490 years (Daniel 9) goes to when the Kingdom of God was taken from the Israelites and given to a nation that then-was to produce fruit out from that Kingdom. This happened when we see in Acts 8 that the Lord’s Ekklesia on Earth moved away from Jerusalem (Israel-centricity) and started the process of going into all the world (after the murder of the first Christian martyr.)

NO DOUBT – what was “left” of the Israelites in the first century was quite the bastardized form of what once was (and even at their very best, they could not get things right because of Death and a desire that incited to sin.) But, we must understand that God the Father had promises to keep to what was ultimately a remnant that was OUT FROM the ethno-religious people Israel – the same Israel that was to be severely judged at the Judgment of ALL THINGS in 70 AD.

Sam, I see that you are “kicking against the goads” as you are trying to disprove Kingism and Prestonism. I get that you would say that you ARE NOT doing such a thing (and that you are merely trying your best to study whatever the truth may be – and allegedly end up being for you) but, in your desire to knock down what is clearly a false gospel contained in Covenant Eschatology, I think that you are missing a healthy Preterism that sees much of what you currently see as the same truths.

The ethno-religious people Israel played a role in the redemption and reconciliation process. THEY ARE NOT THE FOCUS OF GOD THE FATHER!!! GOD’S SON IS HIS FOCUS – AND THERE ARE HUMANS WHO ARE INCLUDED IN WHAT HIS SON ACCOMPLISHED! The Lord Jesus was born of a woman and born UNDER ISRAEL’S LAW. God the Father did not abandon Israel. God the Father saved a remnant OUT FROM the ethno-religious people. The Kingdom of God is made up of many individuals that are out from many nations. Prior to the giving of the law and covenant that the ethno-religious people Israel were subjected towards, there were multitudes of people who existed between the creation of Creation and Adam and when the ethno-religious people Israel were created and given their covenant and law – and many of these pre-Israelite people were ultimately included in the Lord Jesus and in His death and resurrection and what He ultimately accomplished on His cross. RECONCILIATION! REDEMPTION!

Max King and Don Preston have done more to harm Preterism than most can even begin to realize! While some may say that Preterism was “put on the map” by King, Preston, Frost, Stevens, Gentry, and others, the “form” of Preterism that has become popularized in Max King and Don Preston’s Covenant Eschatology is bastardized and radically corrupted in that it provides a false gospel that is Israel-centric and not centered on what the Lord Jesus accomplished on His cross. It’s a shame to watch Don Preston press into the errors and falsehoods that are found in Covenant Eschatology. Covenant Eschatology MISSES what the Lord Jesus accomplished on His cross because the Covenant Eschatologist cannot take their eyes off of Israel for the sake of seeing the beauty and majesty in God’s Son. (To Ed Stevens’ credit, he is one who “separated himself” from Max King in the late eighties and sees the “Individual Body View” instead of the deadly erroneous “Corporate Body View” of Covenant Eschatology.)


Sam Frost

Rich Eckhart I appreciate the concern, really. I left Full Preterism around 2010. That was due to theological reasons/exegetical reasons, which are all fully documented, and those “in the know” who were there know why I left. I even wrote a book, published by American Vision. It had nothing to do with being “hurt”. If you ask folks about me, I am not a very “emotional” person.

As to this recent foray into what I am doing now, that has been documented as well. Quite simply, up until November 2016, I wasn’t really doing anything in regards to “ministry” other than my own personal studies. My dad, may he rest in peace, my friend, was dying. And someone sent me a video of Preston holding up my book and touting it as a “must read” and a “scholarly” presentation. I wrote that book around 2004 or somewhere. Well, that prompted a response from me. It’s really quite that simple. Don knew that I no longer espouse this view. With my dad being in the shape he was in, and the literal joke that Full Preterists make of death (when I was staring it right in the face). It was a dovetail moment. Here I had written a completely useless book dealing with some contrived meaning of “death” (the book is an embarrassment to me, and is only useful for historical documentation of how far i was in this mess when i was in it), and my dad was passing away.

So, I was strongly motivated to do a video. The first I have done in I can’t remember when. It snowballed. There was a new energy. With dad passing away (December 2016), the wind of ministry came blowing back. There are a couple of other things I can mention, but they are private (I could discuss them with you privately). But, from my perspective, in my walk with the Lord, there was a new found energy of ministry. Can’t explain it other than that.

I am, as a I have stated, a historic “preterist”. My renewed interest, after a long drought, has me reinvigorated these days. I have not thrown out the baby for the bathwater. For example, in Daniel, as a scholar, I am now free from certain traditional constraints I had, having learned a lesson of what it means to “read into” texts with a purpose of “finding something” to disprove my enemies. I did that when I was a Full Preterist. I read Daniel as a Preterist. Daniel was an actual Prophet. Daniel wrote when the book says he wrote it. None of that is denied. However, as I have stated, and in my marked up Bible from even my Bible College days (1986-1989), one can see my notes on Antiochus IV, dates, “liberal view”, etc (I have an old really marked up Bible that I have had to tape and glue, and what not…but, hey, that’s a good thing). There is a freedom I am experiencing in diving into Daniel in a fresh way that, for me, solves problems. I am not doing this for any other reason (and certainly not for the reason for attacking Don, for I know that when he hears of me saying some of the things I am, he will use it against me to shame me, embarrass me, state that “Sam’s gone crazy, he doesn’t even know what he believes anymore” or yada, yada, yada). I am aware of that. And, here’s what I want you to take from this: I DON’T CARE. I am honestly engaged in this study, and you are literally watching someone interpret Scriptures in the midst of changing an opinion. What is truly odd is that I have found a strange bedfellow with Frank Daniels, a Full Preterist of sorts!

No, as my heart as my witness Rich, I am not “hurt”. I am not studying Daniel in the way I have shifted my attention so that I can “disprove Don” (that is HARDLY my motivation). Full Preterism, to me, died 7 years ago. I am back to simply studying my Bible with a few scattered commentaries, history books, Bible Works Program, my Hebrew and my Greek. I am solving, at least in my mind, a few issues I have ALWAYS had with Daniel. And, I am certainly free from any constraints or man-made boxes I used to put myself in (namely, prove every Scripture relates to AD 70!). I have always put myself out there as honest as I can be. Even if this means being understood, or ridiculed, or whatever. That’s my dad. “Is this what you want to do?” “Yes!” “Well, to hell with the others then, and do it!,” he’d say. I realize that the perception may be out there that Sam has lost his mind. But, to those who know me, my dearest family, my close friends, I am as sharp as I have ever been….and life is very, very good because of “the man, Christ Jesus” who I worship and adore.

One last thing, is that during all this, since November, I have been talking to more people who are or have left Full Preterism, and I know this may irk you a bit, and for that I mean no personal insult. It is what it is. If I can convince many to come out, or at least expand and open their minds a bit and get out of this AD 70 box they have contructed, then, by God’s grace, as I see it, I am doing my duty. It’s not something I am making my entire “ministry” on. If you have noticed, I have not shot a video in months. I have not responded to every one of Preston’s “papers” about how mentally retarded I have become. I don’t have to. My vision, what I want to do, is far more higher than simply rebutting Preston every time he writes something. I would gladly debate him any time, any where. I need no preparation….I wrote a book he publishes. i simply have to demolish my own work (and I have). Case dismissed. Love ya, Rich. Hope that helps.  August 22 at 9:03am


Rich Eckhart

Sam Frost, I get it. Thanks for sharing. I think there’s tons or room for the Futurist and Preterist to converse and “talk shop.” As you know, I am FAR from seeing death and resurrection and the role of Israel the way that the teachers of Covenant Eschatology see these. I look forward to more discussion.
August 22 at 12:22pm



Faye Rod

Sam Frost I agree with you insofar as Full Preterism, the modern teaching, actually causes you to deny certain truths. I found it was affecting me physically, like a depression, and you are loosed from it when you begin to question things and see that you have not been true to Scripture but have swallowed a doctrine. Fooled me once but not again!
August 22 at 5:49pm


Julienne Chambers

Faye. Do you still hold to the Fulfilled View?
August 22 at 9:37pm



Faye Rod

Julienne Chambers I believe Daniel 9 which agrees with Matthew 24 was fulfilled on or around AD70. As I look at Scripture tho it raises some points that really would have you jumping hoops to say they are ALL fulfilled. See the problem is Jesus returning as Lord and King was to happen just before the Millennium Rev 20 and also the binding of satan in the bottomless pit Rev 20. It goes on in Rev 20 to clearly state that the Great White Throne Judgement is one Thousand years after Christ’s return in judgment in AD70 and after that Death and Hell would be thrown into the lake of Fire, then the New heavens and Earth. How do you get all this into AD70?
August 22 at 9:46pm


Faye Rod

I remember an old Jewish idea that from the beginning to end of this Earth, there would be 2,000 years without the Law, 2,000 years under the Law, 2,000 years under grace then the 1,000 year Millennium which represents the 7 days of Creation , which would then be wrapped up and then a New Heaven and Earth!
August 22 at 10:15pm


Sam Frost

Faye Rod and that, me lady, is the question of all questions: “How do you get all this into AD70?” Get all of it “into” AD 70 they do, and in doing so, run roughshod over some many other areas that have been settled in the Church. And, so, what to do: REDEFINE terms. Yet, some full preterists see this as a wrong-headed approach. What’s another course of action: CESSATION. That is, baptism, the lords table, progressive sanctification, the continuing incarnate human nature of Christ, “going to to church”, pastors, elders, meeting on Sundays, all are out and was meant only for that “transition generation” of the first century. Well, that’s a hard pill to swallow. And, so, what’s another course of action: KEEP doing things the way they have been done, but explain them in terms of all things fulfilled. That’s what we were attempting when I pastored a FP congregation. However, I was increasingly becoming criticized by the very FP’s who denounced us (FPs) as ‘maintaining futurism.’ So, what’s another course of action: Universalism. And another, “redefine creation” in Genesis 1-11. The issues became more and more acute. I ate, slept and drank FP. In my heart there was a growing uneasiness. I just talked to another person tonight who is sensing the same thing – a kind of nudge in his gut. PAY ATTENTION TO THAT! For years I neglected this. I am not out to ruin anyone, but to tell people keep an open mind….you don’t have it all figured out the way you think you do. If I have it all figured out, where’s the need for the Trust in God? However, there are (and were) certain core things that I just could not bring myself to surrender, knowing that if I did surrender (and I damned sure flirted with surrendering), I would no longer be, in any way, shape or form, affiliated with the larger context of the universal church, her discussions, her work, or her ministries.
August 22 at 10:18pm


Sam Frost

I have no doubt in my mind that there are many heart-sincere Christians who are, at this time, wrapped up in Full Preterism. I have no doubts. I also believe, as can be said of almost any organization, that there are those who have found in FP a kind of weapon to use against the church and the established principles of the church, that were ALREADY in rebellion. FP gave them a “rationale” for attack. I believe there are those, like myself at the time, who are entirely sincere and believe they have found something that preserves the sanctity and veracity of the church and her history, seeking to work within the church in order to bring about a greater apologetic to defend it against the attacks of liberalism that insists that Jesus “got it wrong.” I get that. Totally. In my own subjective journey (which neither proves nor disproves FP) as I interpret my own personal walk with the Lord, via the light of Scriptures as a witness to my own heart, my years as a FP, and coming out of much of it, has only enlightened my understanding (as I see it, of course). Jesus didn’t “get it wrong” – and neither did he “spritualize” everything, and he certainly did not absolutely state with clear, unmistakable speech, that everything would be fulfilled, and all that that means, in his own time. What I mean by that is simple: we all agree that Jesus is the Lamb of God, right? The language is crystal, crystal clear. We all agree that Jesus is the Root of David. The language is without debate for Bible readers. These are things we hardly debate, if ever, about. So, what’s the fuss on Eschatology? Quite obvious, we are not dealing with a subject matter that is as crystal clear as other matters. Eschatology is not 2+2=4. THAT’s why I call for more opneness among FP’s in there treatments of those of us who have been there, and left – for the same REASON I became a FP was the same REASON I left it: CONSCIENCE.
August 22 at 10:30pm


Faye Rod

Sam Frost I came into Preterism because I had seen the fulfillment of Daniel 9 in particular. Finding others that had the same understanding, I subjected myself to the teaching, not realizing I was then accepting a whole lot of other stuff that, thank God, the Holy Spirit started making me look at some of the doctrine more closely. I do not accept cessationism and I have been strongly arguing the present ministry of the Holy Spirit. Then I only just recently realized it is part of the Preterist doctrine! My concern is that as I see it now we are in the Millennial reign of Christ, where He is seated at the Fathers right hand until all His enemies become his footstool. It is possible that satan has been released from the bottomless pit, this would answer what is going on since “Israel” has resurfaced to deceive the nations once again.
August 22 at 10:34pm


Faye Rod

Sam Frost I have a facebook friend who has been interested in Preterism and I advised her, apart from the fact that Jesus has returned to end the Old Covenant, to continue with the faith she was raised in and let the Holy Spirit lead her. In all conscience I do not want to lead others astray. As you said it is faith in Christ who saves, not your eschatology.
August 22 at 10:39pm


Sam Frost

Faye Rod I have encountered many souls who have said the same thing…what was seen at first as a great answer to many nagging questions is now becoming a great source of confusion. One of those very issues, speaking to Rich Eckhart, was talking to someone who sees all this and had it explained to him the “corporate resurrection” idea by one its adherents. He could not make heads or tails of it. Made no sense. How do you get ALL of that out of a chapter that takes 7 minutes to read (1st Cor 15)? Imagine the original hearers, listening to the elder read this letter from their beloved Apostle. There they are, sitting in a house gathering of some sort, hearing this part read to them…..they heard Max King’s 800 page explanation?
August 22 at 10:40pm


Faye Rod

Sam Frost I think this Covenant creation thing sealed it for me and when Don seemed to be in agreement with it I began to realize they do not have enough spiritual integrity to denounce ideas that are destroying the very foundations of our faith.
1 · August 22 at 10:44pm


Faye Rod

Sam Frost So what does this make us, luke warm preterists lol!
August 22 at 10:46pm


Sam Frost

Faye Rod I was right there with others who were Fp at the time (and have now left) when Vaughn and Martin started this venture. In fact, I am quoted in their book favorably. That was an unsettling moment. But, and I say this clearly, I saw that, unfortunately, they had a very strong point: if “apocalyptic language” and the symbol for, say, 1000 years can be manipulated to mean something else (1000 years is actually REDUCED to a mere 30 something years in actual time), then WHY NOT carry that same methodology into Genesis 1-11? After all, since “covenantal -decreation langauge” is used to justify the “end of the created world” in AD 70, then can it not be suggested that this is being done in Genesis? After all, Peter uses Noah as an example for “decreation language”. SINCE, then, the fall of Jerusalem was hardly the LITERAL collapse of the universe in some literal world wide conflagration, then Genesis and the Flood are mere symbols of world wide collapse, when, in fact, they are in reality NOT speaking, literally, of creation, or a world wide flood……any more than Peter was literally speaking of a world wide conflagration, yet using world wide conflagration language……I admit….they had a strong point there….
1 · August 22 at 10:51pm


Sam Frost

And, thus, FP was now championing themselves as having solved the “Genesis debate” concerning “creationism.”
August 22 at 10:53pm


Faye Rod

Sam Frost If you do not hold Scripture as important, we can all get sucked into weird doctrine. As you say they did make a case for CC but there were to many things that was making their interpretation of Scripture more important than what Scripture was actually saying.. As I said before Sam, I admire your integrity for stepping down and I am sure it will be a beacon for many more who are beginning to see the light!
August 22 at 11:02pm


Sam Frost

Faye Rod I appreciate that, and do hear what you are saying without letting it go to my head like I am on some crusade. I am not out to make notches for my belt. I don’t have a belt. I want no notches. Been there…..and it was miserable.
August 22 at 11:20pm


Julienne Chambers

^^^^ Anyone who was saved from death to life was saved in the death of Christ. Eschatology is a branch of theology. Not the means of salvation. However, in the chosen generation the Messiah came. NOT ONCE. Twice. He came the second time to bring salvation. The salvation He achieved at the cross in His death and resurrection. When the time of the end arrived everything was fulfilled in regard to Israel and her calling. Jesus came to fulfil the Law and the Prophets in the NC of His blood. Peter said to his fellow Jews in Acts 3, “.. beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.” Which days? The days of the Messiah. The last days. The days that began with the baptism of Jesus and ended when the Covenant between God and Israel disappeared. Jesus was the Promised Seed. In Him all the families of earth were blessed. He was the Representative of Mankind. The Last Adam. He bore sin to extinction in His body and destroyed the death that destroyed Adam. Then He poured out His Spirit on all flesh and caused the dead bones of Israel to rise up, to be joined to one another, and to form His Body, the Church. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. But Christ was also in the Church bringing salvation history to its goal. Jesus enabled Israel to fulfil her calling in the last days in union with Him. He was the Resurrection and the Life. As the members of His Body shared in His suffering they were being transformed into the likeness of His glory. This was as necessary to God’s Purpose in Christ as the chrysalis stage is to metamorphosis. What Israel lacked in obedience and faithfulness Jesus filled up. He was the Covenant, the Temple, the Sacrifice, the Priesthood. However, the members of His Body were in the Messiah and the Messiah was in them through the i dwelling Spirit. Jesus was the Israel of God. But they were the Israel of God in Him. They were living stones in the living temple. They were a royal priesthood in Christ. Their bodies were living sacrifices. They preached the gospel to all nations until the time of the end arrived and Jesus came with the keys to Death and Hades in His hand. Rev 1. He came first to destroy the death that Adam died. When He came a second time death was swallowed up in victory at the resurrection. 1Cor 15. Through the faithful remnant, the Promised Seed, the victory of the cross reached its eschatological goal. The time of the end is not future to us. And what was accomplished in the Chosen Generation, in the context of Israel’s calling, did not fall short. I love you.
3 · August 25 at 6:28pm


Faye Rod

Julienne Chambers Jesus restored the Kingdom and authority of God in the Earth, that is what AD70 is all about. He died the death of Adam for all who would trust in Him and ushered in the New Covenant Age. He holds the Keys of Death and Hades, which means the devil has no rights over us any longer, he is a defeated foe, his power and dominion over the Earth has ceased. This is why there could now be a Millennium of peace with God because satan has been bound in the bottomless pit, he cannot deceive again until he is released a while before the GWT Judgement. Israel was destroyed because she deceived the nations, now we have Israel re-emerging once again and look at the deceit that has come, people going back to Judaism, trying to bring back the law. Then there is the worldly deceit of LGBQT perverting mankind, Islam taking over the world, evolution and those trying to discredit the Scriptures.
August 22 at 11:55pm


Mark Cox

Appreciate u sharing, Sam
🙂
August 23 at 1:04am


Julienne Chambers

Faye Rod Did the resurrection take place in the great tribulation? Or not? If it did then Hades was emptied at the command of the Risen Christ. The just were resurrected to life everlasting and eternal rewards in the Presence of God and His Christ. And the unjust were resurrected to shame and everlasting condemnation at the same time. Jesus came with the Keys of Death and Hades because He was the Resurrection and the Life and the time had come for the resurrection to take place.The resurrection was the hope of Israel. When the Messiah came the time of the resurrection was at hand. The members of Christ’s Body were resurrected from death to life in Him. Before the resurrection took place. The calling of Israel was vicarious because it was fulfilled in Christ, by Christ and through Christ. If the resurrection occurred at the end of the Jewish Age what does that mean for us?? There is no fear in death because when Jesus died we died in Him .. and when death was swallowed up in victory it was swallowed up for us. “And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.” Is 49:3. “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed ..” Gen 22:18.
August 23 at 1:33am


Julienne Chambers

Faye Rod So you are with Sam in ‘stepping down’ and being ‘a beacon’ to others? I am trying to get my ahead around this conversation. ^^ Perhaps you were speaking about CC in particular…??
August 23 at 1:36am


Faye Rod

Julienne Chambers Just stepping back from Full Preterism until I can get answers to some burning questions. There was a resurrection but I am leaning towards it being those who had died in faith waiting for the Redeemer and basically it was all about Israel and probably the 144,000, those who were separated, wheat from tares. Jesus’ whole Earthly ministry was to seek and save the lost sheep of Israel. It would be those who pierced him that would see His return, and it was to those in Jerusalem that Jesus said to flee when they saw the armies surrounding the city, there were no instructions for gentile believers from Jesus. All the promises of returning to take them to be with Him and the promise of heavenly mansions were given to the Jews, not gentiles. I believe that gentile believers were to carry on where Israel failed , living in the Earth and producing the fruit of righteousness as Christ reigns through us to bring all His enemies into submission to the Kingdom of God. Believing Israel has received their heavenly reward and since we have received of His fullness, we shall also, when we leave this body.
1 · August 23 at 3:21am


Julienne Chambers

Thanks for that, Faye. Am interested in your journey. Very well expressed btw. ❤ to you.
1 · August 23 at 3:24am


Julienne Chambers

If death was swallowed up in victory in 70 AD then ‘since we have received of His fullness, we shall also, when we leave this body’ receive our heavenly reward, is fundamentally what I believe. 🙂
1 · August 23 at 3:29am


Faye Rod

Julienne Chambers Death swallowed up in victory meaning at Calvary, or I should say the Resurrection of Jesus defeated death, the death sentence that was on Adam and his descendants!
1 · August 23 at 4:22am


Faye Rod

Julienne Chambers I am not against anyone, we are all on a journey and no one has it all together. It is good to re-assess now and then. I will be still around and participate when it is fitting.
1 · August 23 at 5:40am


Julienne Chambers

Faye Rod Absolutely. x
August 23 at 6:29am


Roderick Edwards

Sam Frost isn’t it interesting that whenever someone leaves “the movement” it’s claimed by those still in it that the person left because they were “hurt” or “seeking attention” or some other emotional driven reason but never simply because they concluded full preterism is error? For me, I left in 2007 (really started about 2000) after 15 years in preterism. Sam you recall my version of preterism was a more “radically shifted paradigm” in I advocated that their was no more need for institutional Christianity since according to preterism the Chief Shepherd already came and awarded the pre-ad70 undershepherds that watched over the flock. After AD70 there would be no need for any man (such as a pastor) to “teach his brother to know the Lord”. My version of preterism was consistent with the premises of audience relevancy and all fulfilled by AD70. It was a sort of proto “Israel Only” preterism.

But the further a person gets into preterism the less they resemble anything that is considered historically Christian. They begin to dismiss key points of faith like Ward Fenely claiming no one is judged for sin…but he was consistent with the preterist concept of the judgment being past.

So before we even get to all the exegetical arguments against preterism it becomes obvious to anyone being honest and objective that whatever full preterism is, it is no more a Christian perspective than communism is an American perspective. I’m not talking about a person’s ultimate salvation. That’s between them and God. However just like an American citizen may be a communist, so too both the communist and the preterist do not really belong to the ideological communities in which they claim to have citizenship.

Sorry to hear about your dad. I hope you had time to say proper goodbyes.
1 · August 23 at 6:59pm



Mark Cox Geez,

FP sounds more like a cult all the time.
🙁

Barry Isaacs
1 · August 23 at 7:43pm


Roderick Edwards

Mark Cox it is unpreterist.blogspot.com
1 · August 23 at 7:45pm


Faye Rod

Mark Cox What I initially got out of Preterism is that the Old Covenant has been done away with, and that is a plus because there are so many who want to bring Christianity back under the Law.
2 · August 23 at 8:18pm


Mark Cox

^ big time, Faye Rod
1 · August 23 at 8:24pm


Mark Cox

Hard to go to something that’s been wiped off the map 😉
2 · August 23 at 8:25pm


Julienne Chambers

Faye. I came to FP on my own. I saw the connection between Dan 9, Dan 12; Matt 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13; and the time statements of the NT. It transformed my understanding of Eschatology and set my feet on a journey I do not regret in the least.
August 23 at 8:40pm


Mark Cox

I’m having a hard time with all the cessationist in the FP camp.
1 · August 23 at 8:45pm


Faye Rod

Julienne Chambers Me too! but I am looking at what is happening in the world and I see things in play that is causing me to question if it has all been understood correctly and this is what I am looking at now
1 · August 23 at 8:45pm


Mark Cox

I’m seeing too much intellectualism and not enough anointing…. 🙁
3 · August 23 at 8:47pm


Faye Rod

Mark Cox That is one of the things that I feel has not been understood in FP interpretation. If they are wrong on one point there could be more and it may affect us now as to what is going on in the world.

I say sense and reason without the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit was given to lead us into all truth but if they deny the present day ministry of the Holy Spirit their doctrine could be up the creek without a paddle!

Julienne Chambers Do you believe in the “gifts” of the Holy Spirit being present in a believer today?
August 23 at 8:55pm


Sam Frost

Faye Rod Mark Cox what happens is that within FP, since there cannot be a dismissal of the last 2000 years (this is not a problem just for Futurists, but for them as well) is, “what do you do with it”? The FP has the problem of answering this from the standpoint that everything is just hunky dorey and fulfilled. The Futurist faces it from the perspective that not all things are fulfilled, and thus, sin, death, evil continue. Which view answers this question better? When you boil right down, has God stopped “judging the nations”? Has he stopped “calling” people into the fold of Christ? Are we left off the hook in terms of loving one another? Even in the FP response, the answers come down to, boiled down to, the same as the Futurists. But, this leads many to ask, and have left FP because of it, WHAT THEN is the difference? We still do the same things….go to church, evenagelize, love one another, feed to poor, etc. We STILL die and “go to heaven”. So, what, is it more comforting, more empowering to know that all things are fulfilled? How is more empowering? I still face the same problems, and the nations are still raging, and God’s wrath is still doing what it does, and millions still hate Christians, and we can “predict” by discerning God’s word when a “collapse” will come. WW2? Bubonic Plague. Typhoid. Have these things changed? Now, in a Postmillennial view, things are steadily “getting better” (and one can make a statistical argument along these lines), and there may be some truth to that….but, look again…we have a LONG way to go unless there be some massive intervention of God (which there may be). So, again, what difference does it make that I know that Five Caesars have fallen, and Nero is 666 and Jesus “came back”? I mean, still face the SAME PROBLEMS King David faced.

Now, some FP might answer, “well, now, when we “go to heaven” we don’t “go to sheol.” Well, this is fraught with all sorts of problems, as I am sure you are aware of. But, regardless, okay, great, we go to heaven instead of sheol. Great. How does knowing this makes this life a better one? When you listen, for example, to some of the FP’s they speak about loving one another and the like. Great. That’s what I am doing, and I left FP. So….again….wouldn’t you expect to see some MASSIVE change in such a doctrinal shift in a person’s life? More POWER? I mean, in the FP view, you are a Child of God, lacking NOTHNING, RAISED from the DEAD! Let’s see some POWER! Excercise those heavenly Kingdom Now POWERS!…..but, alas, we find that the FP is just like us….stuck in the same ruts, arguing for doctrines, causing divisions, and having to go to work to pay for their electric bills…..
2 · August 24 at 10:20am


Faye Rod

Sam Frost Full Preterism demands that you adopt Cessationism there by stopping the very power within each believer to effect a change in the world.
1 · August 24 at 4:27pm


Mark Cox

^ and universalism in it’s ugliest forms as well,… Faye
August 24 at 4:29pm


Faye Rod

Mark Cox I well understand the concern about FP and unless it is reformed based on the Scriptures it is just a cult. I am still waiting for some answers as to how come Preterism pops the Millennium BEFORE the judgement on the harlot. This is the dishonesty of the doctrine, they make it all about Christ’s return, full stop. They do not deal with the sequence of events in Revelation.
2 · August 24 at 4:33pm


Mark Cox

^ I’m still in the process of figuring this all out… There’s much I just don’t get yet. But I’m okay with that. I don’t need it all tidy and in a box.

Julienne … ^ … This is kind of where I’m at with fulfilled eschatology. There’s some things about preterism I just can’t in good conscience get a grip on. Both partial and full. It’s a scandalous gospel after all … Faye Sam
1 · August 24 at 5:54pm


Julienne Chambers

Me too, Mark. I believe Jesus came at the time appointed by God and the resurrection took place at that time .. in the great tribulation. But for 20 years I have been processing that fact and trying to understand its implication. I will until the day I die.
1 · August 24 at 6:23pm


Julienne Chambers

Faye Rod The Canon of Scripture was completed when the Revelation of Jesus was received by John. Nothing has been added to the Word since then. The sealing of vision and prophecy occurred shortly after that imo since the Jesus was coming soon and His final revelation was about to be realised. I believe vision and prophecy were sealed when the Law and the Prophets were fully accomplished at the time of the end; when the Prophecy of 70 Weeks reached its terminus.

However, there’s more to be said.

Paul wrote in 1 Cor 13, “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; THEN WE SHALL SEE FACE TO FACE; Now I know in part; THEN I SHALL KNOW FULLY, AS I AM FULLY KNOWN.”

Can we see Jesus face to face now? No. When will we see Him? In glory. He will appear to us personally and individually when we see Him face to face in heaven. He is with us NOW. But we cannot SEE Him.

John wrote in his Epistle, “Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall SEE him as he is.” 1Jn 3:2.

Paul wrote in Col 3, “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.”

When did Jesus appear to the saints? When He came in judgment and glory at the end of the age.

When we are with Jesus in heaven there will be no need of faith or hope .. or prophecy or vision. What is now known through the study of God’s Word will be fully known then. The Mind of Christ will be perfected in us. No one will be scrambling to look up a verse or prove a point or creating Memes to deliver a fatal blow (!).

“When completeness comes, what is in part disappears.”
When did the perfect arrive?
When the shadow was replaced by the substance. When the dead were resurrected. When the redemption of the body was accomplished. When the Law and the Prophets were completely fulfilled in and through Christ. In 70 AD.

But what does that mean exactly?
The perfect arrived at the resurrection when the redemption of the body was fully realised.
But has salvation been fully realised in us .. or fully comprehended by us?

Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5, “For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling,3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, SO THAT WHAT IS MORTAL MAY BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.”

We are already clothed in the Righteousness of Christ by faith through grace. Right? So the Spirit, the guarantee of glory, is housed in a mortal body.

Is the mortal body perfect?
Mine is not. And I’m on a downward slide (!).

When will the mortal be swallowed up by life? When the mortal body is destroyed in death. And because the mortal will be swallowed up in immortality what is death?

Death is Life.

“The Law of the Spirit of life has set us free IN CHRIST JESUS from the Law of sin and death.” Roms 8:2.

We are free in Christ already. We are the Children of God in Him. But when we see Him as He is we will be like Him. Glorified Sons and daughters clothed in a heavenly body.

When Christ appears to us we will see what mortal eyes cannot perceive. The glory and the beauty of Christ fully formed in us.

Our resurrection from death to life was realised vicariously in the body of Christ. In His death and resurrection. And it is being realised in our walk of faith. But it will be fully realised when we see Jesus face to face.

Death was destroyed in Christ’s body on the cross. Death was swallowed up in victory at the resurrection.

Therefore we have nothing to fear in death. It is not a dark intruder. It is a dear friend. When we die our rebirth in Christ will be fully realised.

“Eye has not seen and ear has not heard and it has not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1 Cor 2:9.

Has the perfect arrived?
Yes. And No.

The great change, the redemption of the body, occurred in the great tribulation at the end of the age.
But what was objectively achieved when the dead were raised will not be fully realised until the perfect arrives for us. Sam Frost Mark Cox
August 24 at 10:05pm


Mark Cox

Julienne … I’m absolutely confident/convinced of some things concerning this glorious gospel.

Christ died for my sins and rose from the dead. Jesus loves me!…See More

just for starters lol
August 24 at 7:41pm


Julienne Chambers

Faye Rod You asked, “Do you believe in the “gifts” of the Holy Spirit being present in a believer today?’ The post above ^^ is in part an aswer. If Christ is not present with us through His Spirit today then what was achieved in the chosen generation is irrelevant to us. But that is not so. I have more thoughts .. I essentially wrote my last post last night but did not quite finish it. Today I am busy with many other things. I will get back to you but hopefully what I have written here will give you some insight to my position.
2 · August 24 at 7:42pm


Julienne Chambers

Mark Cox YES. He does. More than you know. Or I. But I know more than that, Mark. I know Jesus came in power and glory at the end of the age. I know the salvation achieved by Jesus on the cross was fullly realized at the resurrection. I know that as truly as I know Jesus died for me. And I will not retreat an inch from that position unless God shows me otherwise .. whatever the implications. May God bless and leads us into the Truth by His Grace through His Spirit. Amen.
2 · August 24 at 7:46pm


Faye Rod

Julienne Chambers Thanks Julienne, I think that is basically what futurists believe though, except for the part where you say “has the perfect arrived?, yes and no”.

So according to Preterism we have an almost but not yet before the Parousia and now 2,000 years later we are still in an almost but not yet situation!
Doesn’t that suggest that what is being taught is not the correct interpretation of events that occurred at the end of the Old Covenant Age?
If the pre AD70 believers tasted of the good things of the Age to come, we should be experiencing the fullness now that the Age has come!
Knowing my salvation as a Futurist, by faith in Jesus’ sacrifice at Calvary, is what brought me out of a bad situation in my life, and understanding the power of the Holy Spirit working through me has bought miracles into my life and to those the Lord has led me to minister to. So I know for sure the Holy Spirit is present today in believers and wants to work on behalf of those who have received Him as a real and present person, and not just as a theory.
1 · August 24 at 10:19pm


Julienne Chambers

Faye. I am not ‘basically a futurist’. We are not waiting for Jesus to return. We are not waiting for the end of the age to come. God is present to us and in us. He has us in life and in death. He is with us on earth. And we will be with Him in heaven. The victory of the cross healed the separation between us and God. So nothing can separate us from His Love or His Presence. There is no sting in death. Before the coming of Christ sin produced death and death was separation from God’s Presence. But separation was breached in the body of Christ. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. In the death of Christ we died. And when He rose we rose in Him. God is with us on earth and in heaven. Nothing can separate us from His Love or His Presence. Because the separation between man and God was breached in the body of Christ we are eternally secure in Him. Death is not a dark intruder that separates us from God. Death ushers us into God’s Presence fully restored in Christ. We are not waiting for Jesus to come. He came in power and glory at the end of the Jewish age. The ‘already but not yet’ period ended when Jesus came and the Righteous were instantly translated into the Presence of God .. clothed in a new and glorious body.
August 24 at 11:37pm


Julienne Chambers

So do I glean from your post ^^ that you are not a Preterist now?? I am a bit confused.
August 24 at 11:38pm


Faye Rod

Julienne Chambers Luke warm Preterist.as far as ALL things fulfilled. I believe Jesus returned in Judgement on unfaithful Israel and that the Old Covenant age has finished. The everlasting Kingdom of God has come.
This is where I differ until I can reconcile Scripture with the doctrine!

Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father where He has begun His Millennial Reign over the Earth until all His enemies have become His foot stool. Satan has been bound in the bottomless pit to be released for a short time before the Great White Throne judgement, when Jesus will hand over the Kingdom to the Father.
I do not believe in “another coming” so I am not Pre, Post or Amil!
😜🤣😉 lol!
2 · August 25 at 12:51am


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers So what happens when we die?
August 25 at 1:36am


Faye Rod
Faye Rod Julienne Chambers As Paul said, absent from the body, present with the Lord!
August 25 at 2:27am


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers In a resurrected body .. or ‘unclothed’..?😳
August 25 at 2:29am


Faye Rod
Faye Rod Julienne Chambers LOL!…Well the Lord has already come and we are still in our Earth Suit…He is not coming again, all the twinkling has been done, so I believe we will be clothed upon entry into Heaven
1 · August 25 at 2:36am


Faye Rod
Faye Rod Or maybe when we leave this tent the real us will be revealed!
2 · August 25 at 2:37am


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers The twinkling..??!!🙃🙄😳
August 25 at 2:44am


Faye Rod
Faye Rod Julienne Chambers At Christ’s coming they were to be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
1 · August 25 at 2:45am


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Ah .. that twinkling..! 😊👁
1 · August 25 at 2:47am


Faye Rod
Faye Rod Julienne Chambers I still keep thinking of that physical resurrection when the bodies came out of the graves after Jesus arose. It has to be significant as it is the only resurrection of the dead recorded after Jesus, the first fruit, rose from the dead.
1 · August 25 at 2:49am


Sam Frost
Sam Frost Julienne Chambers Paul states that “we shall not be” found naked. We are “not” unclothed. Being present with the Lord and enter HIS dwelling place. Paul is comparing OUR dwelling place with HIS dwelling place. The state between “going to heaven” and “resurrection” is not a state of “being found naked.” He explicitly says this.
August 25 at 4:26am


Sam Frost
Sam Frost Paul is not describing “resurrection of the dead” in II Corinthians 5.
August 25 at 4:26am


Sam Frost
Sam Frost And, the one thing you miss in all of this, is that Paul is writing in or around 56, 57 AD. Why don’t you apply “when it was written” like you do other texts? If Paul wrote this 13 years BEFORE 70 AD, then, in your view, how can it be that they were “entering heaven” and “being covered” ALREADY?
August 25 at 4:30am


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart Because the Apostle Paul knew what it meant to “put on Christ.” Why was the Apostle Paul so confident PRIOR to 70 AD? Because he KNEW his identity! – his identity that was his PRIOR TO 70 AD!

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

Galatians 2:20 “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”
2 · August 25 at 5:56am


Faye Rod
Faye Rod Rich Eckhart Romans 8:11 If the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead lives in you He shall quicken (make alive) your mortal body. This verse has a present reality, quickening your physical body with the life of Christ. I wonder if we take these verses seriously.
1 · August 25 at 6:26am


Mark Cox
Mark Cox Faye Rod said ->

“Julienne Chambers I still keep thinking of that physical resurrection when the bodies came out of the graves after Jesus arose. It has to be significant as it is the only resurrection of the dead recorded after Jesus, the first fruit, rose from the dead.”

Would like to see ^this^ discussed.

Shane
2 · August 25 at 6:34am · Edited


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Sam Frost said, “Paul is not describing “resurrection of the dead” in II Corinthians 5. In Biblegateway the heading of 2 Cor 5 is ‘Awaiting The New Body”. So I am not the only one who has this wrong. IF I DO. WHICH I DO NOT. I believe this passage is about the body of redemption. And I do not understand why that is not obvious to you. Paul begins by talking about his ‘earthly tent’ .. his physical body. He says when it is ‘torn down’ he will have another ‘building from God, an eternal house not built by human hands’. He was not talking about a literal house or palace or mansion somewhere beyond the clouds for pete’s sake. Was he??! He was talking about the eternal, incorruptible, heavenly house that would replace the corruptible and perishable body of dust that was his current ‘earthly tent’. He sighed and groaned in his body longing to be reclothed in a heavenly body. If that was not the body of redemption what body was it?! Please tell me. The resurrection was the hope of Israel. And according to Dan 12 the resurrection was to occur in the great tribulation. And the great tribulation was to occur before the generation past. Jesus made that very clear. And we know beyond the shadow of a doubt that it happened when He said it would happen. When did Paul write his epistle to the Corinthians? In the mid 50s you say? That was 25 years after the death of Jesus. A biblical generation was 40 years. So Jesus was coming to raise the dead to life in about 15 years.Give or take a year or two. So the end of the age, the great tribulation and the resurrection were just around the corner. So to speak. And although the time of the resurrection was unknown in terms of the day or the hour .. it was going to happen soon. OF THAT PAUL HAD NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER. Paul was already joined to Jesus by the Spirit as a member of Christ’s Body. Through the Spirit that indwelled him he was in the Messiah and the Messiah was in Him. So Paul was inextricably linked to God in Christ. To the One who was the Resurrection and the Life. In the last days the objective union of God and Man in Christ was being reproduced in Christ’s Body, the Church, by faith thru grace. As believers were being conformed to the likeness of Christ in His suffering they was being transformed into the likeness of His glory. But this change, this miraculous metamorphosis, did not manifest itself in Paul’s body, in his earthly tent. Yet he was being changed from glory to glory in his union with Christ. Paul longed to put on his new body. His heavenly, glorified body. ” 4 So while we are still in this tent, we sigh under our burdens, because we do not want to put it off but to put it on, so that our dying bodies may be swallowed up by life.” Does the phrase, ‘swallowed up by life’ ring any bells?? It should. When was death going to be swallowed up in life?? At the resurrection. THIS CONNECTS PERFECTLY WITH THE WORDS OF PAUL IN 1 COR 15. And 1 Cor 15 is about the resurrection. That you cannot deny!! ” 53 For what is decaying must be clothed with what cannot decay, and what is dying must be clothed with what cannot die. 54 Now, when what is decaying is clothed with what cannot decay, and what is dying is clothed with what cannot die, then the written word will be fulfilled: “Death has been SWALLOWED UP by victory! Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 2 Corinthians 5 is NOT about the resurrection? Why?? It is about being clothed with a heavenly body. Why is that not the body of redemption??
August 25 at 6:51am · Edited


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart Faye Rod “This verse has a present reality, quickening your physical body with the life of Christ. I wonder if we take these verses seriously.”

INDEED IT DOES!

I DO take these scriptures very seriously! They are key to understanding what WASN’T available to them (prior to 70 AD) and what IS available to us (post-70 AD.) Going to Sheol was preventing them to receive something and they must need wait for. Because of what transpired in 70 AD, we (who are born anew today) do not wait like they needed to wait.

I would love to dig into this an elaborate on what I see going on here but, we can’t past even the basics yet! There is more ripping down of false doctrine (especially Kingism) to do before getting into the real juicy stuff! 🙂
August 25 at 6:53am


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers ^^ The earthly tent/tabernacle/temple were made of corruptible, earthly elements. This was the dwelling place of God amongst His people Israel. But it was also a type. The shadow of a greater reality. The reality was Christ. Every element of the Temple and its cultus was about Jesus. His Person, His Ministry and His Mission. When the earthly temple vanished the greater reality of ‘Christ in us the Hope of Glory’ was fully realized at the resurrection. Sam Frost .. why oh why can’t you see that!?
August 25 at 7:00am · Edited


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Rich Eckhart ^^ But I don’t think Sam Frost agrees with you. The resurrection is future. Not past. The saints are in heaven now .. enjoying face to face fellowship with Christ .. but the resurrection, the redemption of the body, has not happened yet. If you believe it has .. and you expect to go to heaven clothed in an immortal, imperishable body .. the body of redemption .. Sam does not. So you guys FUNDAMENTALLY DISAGREE about an issue that is at the very heart of this discussion. Does that not bother you?
August 25 at 6:59am · Edited


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers And if I am wrong Sam Frost ^^ please tell me.
August 25 at 7:01am


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers “1Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God. And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. 2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that WHEN CHRIST APPEARS we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. 3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.…” 1 John 3.
August 25 at 7:03am


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart Julienne Chambers, Do you believe in Universal Reconciliation?
August 25 at 7:09am


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Rich Eckhart Why a question out of left field? Do you and Sam agree about the resurrection. Or not? You are deflecting. And I am going to bed. I mean no offence. It is midnight in my part of the world. Goodnight.
August 25 at 7:23am · Edited


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart I totally realize that Sam Frost and I see things differently. We see the cross of the Lord Jesus the same but, our understanding of when the Judgment took place is different. We also both believe that the Lord Jesus is NOT a disembodied man. AND – I’m not deflecting! It’s very tedious to read what you write (no offense meant) because you are so steeped in Covenant Eschatology – whether you want to admit that or not doesn’t change it. We’re discussing very important matters and, if you believe that everyone is saved today (or SOME form of Universal Reconciliation or Universalism), we are NOT ON THE SAME PAGE as it concerns the ONE AND ONLY GOSPEL that was once delivered for all time. It’s in the same way (Universalism in whatever form) that I see Don Preston as an enemy of that ONE AND ONLY GOSPEL (as he makes a false gospel and false salvation about a “Corporate Body” in 70 AD that does not even exist.)
August 25 at 7:36am


Mark Cox
Mark Cox Agree with Julienne … Way to kill a good discussion, Rich … 🙁
August 25 at 7:38am


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart I don’t wish to play games for the sake of making someone “feel good.” I read what Julienne Chambers writes and it is so tainted with Covenant Eschatology (which is why I ask about Universalism – because Covenant Eschatology truly speaks towards Universalism.) There are things that should not be tolerated. Universalism (in whatever form) is one of those things. The conversation continues – with or without a Covenant Eschatology and Universalism influence.
August 25 at 7:46am


Roderick Edwards
Roderick Edwards Preterism in general tends toward universalism; no more sin, no more judgment for anyone or tends toward cessationism like “Israel Only”, no more sin or judgement but only applies to pre-ad70 saints/”Israel”. Preterism is no more Christian than Mormonism or JWs no matter how many Christian terms are used.
August 25 at 8:42am · Edited


Shane Mason
Shane Mason I use the terminology “Fulfilled Eschatology” or “Victorious Eschatology”…another term that is good is “Comprehensive Eschatology”…

When we


from certain “Defining Words” people will no longer be able to label you, being labeled gives people handles and if you have handles you can be dismissed.

To see the resurrection past (completely) is a mistake in my opinion…we may need to view it as an ongoing process which began in AD 70 and continues with everyone of us who puts off this earthly tent hence at that time putting on immortality (an incorruptibile body).
2 · August 25 at 9:07am · Edited


Roderick Edwards
Roderick Edwards Labels = words, such as a cat, a dog, a man, a woman. The moment a person says what they believe (their “creed”) , it can and will be labeled since there is ” nothing new under the sun”
August 25 at 9:22am


Shane Mason
Shane Mason Though the people in this group would hear me and label me a preterist, I personally will not side with such a label, more importantly such a label is nothing like “cat or dog”, it is more like a certain breed…and then there are many mix-breeds of preterism. You may be a preterist, one of you are a Terrier while someone else is a French Bulldog. It never ends.
1 · August 25 at 9:28am · Edited


Mark Cox
Mark Cox Matthew: 27. 52. And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

^ any thoughts?
1 · August 25 at 9:50am


Mark Cox
Mark Cox How bout a Pitbull with lipstick, Shane ??? LoL
😉
2 · August 25 at 9:52am


Shane Mason
Shane Mason Mark Cox these verses is what makes me challenge myself as to becoming definitive in one certain theological ideology. These rather we like it or not are not easy to interpret along side of a preterist position.
3 · August 25 at 11:18am


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Mark Cox
This is tricky and I don’t have a pat answer. However, I have some thoughts.
The time of the Messiah was the time of the resurrection. The last days began at the start of the 70th Week when Jesus was baptised and anointed by the Spirit. They ended in 70 AD when the power of the holy people was shattered in the great tribulation and the 70 Weeks prophesied in Dan 9 ended. That was the time of the resurrection. It was also the time when the Covenant between God and Israel disappeared and the temple and city vanished.

Dan 12 and Matt 24/Luke 21 link the resurrection to a specific time in Israel’s history. The time of great distress in Dan 12 = the great tribulation in Matt 24 = the end of the age = the time of the end = the period of ‘a time, times and half a time’ = the times of the Gentiles = the last half Week of the 70 Weeks marked out for the holy people and their city. When Jesus announced in the Apocalypse, ‘THE TIME IS NEAR’, it was THAT time .. the time of judgment WAS the time of the resurrection. And that time was very near.

The last days began at the start of the 70th Week when the Messiah came. The last days ended at the time of the end when the Covenant disappeared, the power of the holy people was shattered and the 70 Weeks ended.

When Hymanaeus and Philetus said the resurrection was past they were soundly condemned as false teachers. Why?? The TIME of the resurrection was not a small matter to the Apostles. IT WAS CRITICAL. And the time had not arrived.

Jesus said in John 5:25, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice”.

The opening of the graves after the resurrection of Jesus was a sign that the time of the resurrection had arrived and the resurrection in Dan 12 was inextricably linked to Jesus, the Messiah.

Jesus said, “I AM the Resurrection and the Life.” This was also confirmed when the Spirit was out poured and the dead bones of Israel rose from the grave, took on flesh and joined to each other in the Body of Christ. This was proof that the time of the resurrection had arrived. Indeed, all the prophets who had spoken, from Samuel and those who followed him, announced these days. Acts 3:24.

The Body of Christ was Spiritual Israel .. the Israel of God. The members of the Body were joined to Jesus by the Spirit. They were in the Messiah and the Messiah was in them. And as they proclaimed the truth to the Jews and Gentiles a miracle was unfolding. The members of Christ’s Body were being changed into His likeness ‘from glory to glory’. And therefore the objective union of God and Man in Christ was being reproduced in the Body. The followers of Jesus were being raised from death to life by faith thru grace. This process was inextricably linked to the vicarious death and resurrection of Jesus.

But the resurrection was future. Jesus said the great tribulation would begin before the generation passed. And the time of judgment WAS the time of the resurrection WAS the period of great distress in Dan 12 WAS the prophetic period of ‘a time, times and half a time’ WAS ‘the times of the Gentiles’ in Luke 21.

What happened with the graves opened shortly after the resurrection of Jesus?? It was a sign that the time the prophets looked into had arrived. Before the generation passed everything the prophets foretold would be fulfilled. Including the resurrection. The opening of the graves linked the promise of the resurrection to the resurrection of Jesus and confirmed that He was the Resurrection and the Life.

But is that a sufficient explanation, Mark Cox?? I am not sure it is. So if anyone has something to add .. I am all ears! I think there is something I am missing here. But I don’t know what it is.
August 25 at 3:48pm · Edited


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Roderick Edwards ” Preterism in general tends toward universalism; no more sin, no more judgment for anyone or tends toward cessationism like “Israel Only”, no more sin or judgement but only applies to pre-ad70 saints/”Israel” .. OR .. those who have come to these conclusions are not seeing clearly here and there is a third option. That is possible.
August 25 at 3:47pm · Edited


Michael Beiras
Michael Beiras Julienne Chambers You are an excellent teacher and I always enjoy your comments, Julienne. You are also extremely patient and kind.
August 25 at 5:27pm


Faye Rod
Faye Rod Julienne Chambers Resurrection was to be in a specific order.
1 Corinthians 15:22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming,THOSE WHO BELONG TO HIM.
24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.…Rev 20 the GWT judgement.

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
I am beginning to see that the first resurrection was not a mass resurrection spoken of but only those who were the Elect of Israel, those who had believed on Him in His Earthly ministry, those living and those who slept who heard His voice.

This could very well be those who arose when Jesus was Resurrected. All Old Covenant people who had died in faith would arise at the Parousia. The rest are to be resurrected for the GWT judgement, which includes everyone written in the Lambs Book of Life, which is all those since 70AD who have died that believed in Jesus.
I am just pulling this apart to get an understanding of the events!
1 · August 25 at 6:11pm


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Thank you Michael. 🙂
1 · August 25 at 6:21pm · Edited


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Very interesting Faye! Will think about that. 🙄🙂
August 25 at 6:23pm


Sam Frost
Sam Frost Julienne Chambers Well, all that you have noted to me is that, 1. interpreters differ on this passage. True. It is a notoriously difficult passage. If you read the commentaries (I digest them like food), you will note that Paul employs a “mixed metaphor.” 2. You will notice that out of the many interpretations, they all boil down to “intermediate state” and “resurrection state.” The “resurrection” state is generally found among the more “liberal” commentaries that suggests that Paul “changed his thinking” from 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4 to here. I don’t by that at all.

The more “conservative” commentaries, though not all of them, think that Paul is dealing with the “intermediate state” (I agree with them). Paul is NOT dealing with the “resurrection”, but the state of believers upon death, in his time, before 5.10, and “we must all stand before the Seat of Christ to be judged according to things done in the BODY.” In other words, the strength of this argument is that Paul is envisioning death, and THEN concludes with “for we must all stand” later (THIS is the general resurrection of the dead). In other words, Paul is dealing with the state of those “having fallen asleep” in Christ BEFORE we are “all” are “made to appear”. Hence, those who fall asleep are made to be “with Christ” upon death, and are later “made to appear” BEFORE Christ (resurrection). This follows typical Jewish thinking in that period (individual deaths, followed by general resurrection.

The issues of the “metaphors” that Paul employed, and the issue of the “Present Active” of the verb, “we have”, presents the issues, or problems, for the exegete. Some have found that Paul is hopelessly confused, using mixed metaphors (clothing, tent, dwelling, house). However, again, going deep into the text and known applications of “tent” imagery, some commentaries, I think have solved the problem (and i have a paper, unpublished, on this that dives into this passage in greater detail).
1 · Yesterday at 12:09am


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers So you digest commentaries like food, you have a photographic memory and you are a speed reader, Sam Frost. Not a wonder I struggle with you..!! 🙄😵🙂
Yesterday at 12:20am


Sam Frost
Sam Frost First, let’s deal, briefly, with the verb: Present Active Indicative. “We have”. That is, this can be taken in two ways: present affirmation of confidence of what is to be in the future, or, Paul is noting what is already now in his own time (57 AD). Of course, if we took the latter meaning, this wrecks the CE paradigm, the FP paradigm entirely. Keep in mind, Paul uses the Present Active in 1 Cor 15, too (“the dead are being raised”) – which can denote “future confidence” as here, or an “present reality.” Greek can go either way, and thus, as my Prof always said: CONTEXT! I view that the Greek here is speaking of what “we have” upon death, for that is the context; when this “tabernacle” is “taken down” (tent imagery is used, and the verb “taken down” is used for tents being dismantled – Paul was a tent-maker). You would have to account, in your view, for what happened to those, prior to AD 70, who “fell asleep.” Were they “regenerated” by the Spirit, clothed with Christ, born again, only to go to “sheol” before AD 70? This runs into numerous problems.

Second, the “if” clause. “IF this tabernacle is taken down”…This is a third condition subjunctive, and, in many cases, expresses “doubt”. Not all cases, though. Again, CONTEXT. The details of how this clause is to be understood are numerous. None the less, commentaries are by far in the support that “tabernacle” is referencing the human body, and of that I will not budge.
Yesterday at 12:21am


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Will get back to you. Busy!
1 · Yesterday at 12:21am


Sam Frost
Sam Frost I’ll keep writing….
1 · Yesterday at 12:22am


Sam Frost
Sam Frost Paul then moves on in terms of a comparison between our “tabernacle” and “God’s House in heaven.” It is here, as has been noted by some, that the “mixed metaphor” is employed. The “house” “dwelling place” “building” (three different words in the text) of God is compared with our current “Tabernacle” (our house, our dwelling place, our building). Thus, the comparison is between HOUSES, not BODIES. This insight changes the entire interpretation.

In other words, the body is viewed as our current “house” (Tabernacle, think back to the “wandering in the wilderness”). However, God’s House, “eternal, in the heavenlies” is HIS Temple/dwelling place. The term for “clothed” can ALSO be understood as COVERING (which is what the verb enduo means – covered…ENDUED). Thus, one COVERING is dismantled, and ANOTHER COVERING is “entered”. We leave this COVERING, and we ENTER INTO (note that lovely little preposition) God’s House, HIS building, HIS heavenly Temple. Noah was “found naked” in his own tent, next to his wife. The sin of Ham was that he was UNCOVERED in his tent, where, ONE IS COVERED. A man naked next to his wife UNDER his own TENT is perfectly legit….Noah was not outside naked…he was inside and not naked, and Ham UNCOVERED his nakedness. The other boys knew better, walked backwards and COVERED him over. Not that Paul is alluding to this, but a man in his own house is NOT NAKED, even if he is nude. That’s the idea.

Therefore, leaving this body/house and entering into God’s House in heaven is not a “body/body” comparison at all, but a COVERING/COVERING comparison. This insight completely changed my entire look at this passage.
Yesterday at 12:35am


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Am attending a quiz night shortly and am flat out ATM with life. But I really appreciate talking with you and the time you invest. Thank you Sam.
23 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost What has steered many in the wrong way is that since Paul is using Tabernacle for our bodies (which he most definitely is), AND referring to God’s “house”, he must be making a comparison between the body here, and the body there. Yet, many of these SAME commentaries will note the “confusion” or “MIXED metaphor” – mixed only because they are mixed up! The comparison is between our House and God’s House. God’s House is NOT A BODY! God’s “dwelling place, eternal, in the heavens” is NOT A BODY. These are words used many times in the OT for HEAVEN, God’s Abode; NEVER are they used for “body” – EVER. The comparison, again, is not “body/body”, but “dwelling place/dwelling place.” We are “covered over” in this Tabernacle, and when we “put off this cover” we enter IN (that lovely little preposition) to God’s House – not naked, but COVERED UPON. Thus, Paul is at once countering the opposition that would have raised the idea that IF the resurrection of the dead is future, and we fall asleep BEFORE such time, we will be “naked” (soul without a body – a VERY common Greek expression from Plato onward). Paul is saying the Greeks, “not so….we have a covering in heaven, God’s House, wherein we enter in upon death, into his house, his dwelling place in the heavens, eternal, not made with hands.” I note in my paper that entering into the Temple, in the OT, employs the words of “covering upon” “being covered” and “entering into”. Same words here. Temple Theology.

To “enter into heaven” is to be “present with the Lord” – “we have” this upon death (Paul writing in 57 AD). But, it is NOT resurrection of the Tabernacle being spoken of here. It is leaving this Tabernacle and “entering into” the True Tabernacle in heaven, God’s Own House, His dwelling place.
1 · 23 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost Well, I hope you read this.
1 · 23 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost if not, others are….
1 · 23 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers You KNOW I will read it! 🙂 I explained my circumstance ..^^
23 hrs · Edited


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Oh boy .. you are here as well, Faye Rod. It may be a while before I can participate or contribute. Agh! 🙃☹️
23 hrs · Edited


Sam Frost
Sam Frost One last thing, before I leave this subject, is that the other “problem” is the verse, “whether we are absent from home, or present at home, we are pleasing to him.” Many have taken this to mean, “present in the body” or “absent from the body.” Not so. Carefully following Paul’s reasoning here renders this meaning: “whether we are present and at home in our bodies, or, from another view, absent from the Lord” we make ourselves pleasing to him. For Paul, to “be at home” is to be in our body. This means, “absent from the Lord” – “present at home in our body” and “absent from the Lord” are the same things, seen from two perspectives. That’s the comparison. As long as I am here in this Tabernacles, I am “away from the Lord” (this simple fact destroys CE, as Rich Eckhart has pointed out).

The reason why this phrase has puzzled commentators is because of the clause. “Wherefore also we are ambitious, whether at home or away from home, to be well pleasing to him.” “at home” (in our Tabernacle) and “away from home” (from the Lord’s Home). Same things, two ways of looking at it. We have two homes: here, and there. While home here, we are away from His Home. The thing that has puzzled many is “to be well pleasing to him” – which is a strange thing in light of the fact that, if considered that we are “in heaven” then OF COURSE we will be well pleasing to him! “Well pleasing to him” is a phrase used for our “confidence and and ambition” HERE ON EARTH, not in heaven! Many have taken “at home” (in our bodies) or “away from home” (away from our bodies), and this is just false, and completely contradicts the flow of the passage. Rather, to be “at home” and “away from home” – the HOMES are different. While we are IN HOME (Greek) here, we are AWAY FROM HOME there, but, either way, Paul says, we seek to be well pleasing to him……
1 · 23 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers 🙄👍
23 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost So, “Brothers, at whatever point our tabernacles is dismantled, we know that we have an abode to enter into: God’s House in heaven, eternal, made not with hands. We long to enter in that dwelling place, and having so entered into, we shall not be found without cover. While we live in this tabernacle, we are burdened, and we groan, not so much that we have a wish to leave it (that would be wrong), but that we so much desire to enter ourselves into the House of the Lord for the very reason that, at some point in the future, this mortal tent will be swallowed up by the Life we already have. Now, God has worked this very purpose, and has already given us the down payment in this tent of ours: the Spirit. Be, then, of good courage, knowing that while we are at home in this tent, we are away from His Home. We walk not by what we see with our eyeballs, but by faith in what is fact – we have a home in heaven! Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord, of course. Wherefore also we are ambitious, whether at home in our body, or, another way of putting it, away from His Home, to be well pleasing to him. For all of us, it is necessary, one day to be manifested before the tribunal of the Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body, in reference to the things that he did, whether good or evil.”
23 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost in other words, what we do in the body (away from the Lord) will be judged. so, we are pleasing to him while in the body (at home, but away from his home). we are judged for what we do WHILE away from home….while IN our body….because the BODY will be judged.   it is acts DONE while walking by faith (in this life..we don’t walk by faith in heaven! We SEE IT).

we are not judged for things done in heaven….but for things done THROUGH THE BODY (while in our body, while at home in this tabernacle).  therefore, the “guarantee of the Spirit” is received by FAITH, here and now, not then and later.  and what is DONE as a result (FRUITS of the SPIRIT) in THIS LIFE while in the body, are judged. Your BODILY LIFE will be JUDGED at the resurrection of the dead (Revelation 20.11-15).

Therefore, and I conclude, Paul is not making a comparison here between “body/body” or “body now and body in heaven” – but, is telling them, when you die, you enter into God’s house, however, your WORKS while here in this body, will be judged

So, how then do we live while at home in the body and away from the Lord? Be Well Pleasing to Him! Why?
Because you WILL given an account.
And at that time there won’t be any guessing as to “who is in” and “who is out.”

Kyrie eleison
23 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers I am grabbing a couple of mins but that is all. Sam said, ” Some have found that Paul is hopelessly confused, using mixed metaphors (clothing, tent, dwelling, house).” Hmm. Interesting. The mixed metaphors work very well with Fulfilled Eschatology imo.Maybe the confusion comes from a wrong headset. Or not.
22 hrs · Edited


Sam Frost
Sam Frost his metaphors aren’t mixed, however.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Sam Frost said: ” You would have to account, in your view, for what happened to those, prior to AD 70, who “fell asleep.” Were they “regenerated” by the Spirit, clothed with Christ, born again, only to go to “sheol” before AD 70? This runs into numerous problems.” As I said in a previous thread this is a grey area for me.
22 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost shouldn’t be grey….it is a matter of grave importance.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Humour me then. What did you believe BEFORE you left FP .. ? I want to know. When you were immersed in Fulfilled Eschatology and a leading voice in that movment what did you say when you were asked that question?? The members of Christ’s Body were already raised from death to life in Him. They were indwelled with His Spirit .. the guarantee of glory .. they were clothed in His righteousness .. as they were being conformed to Christ in His sufferings they were being transformed into the likeness of Christ glorified .. so .. what happened to the members of Christ’s Body when they died biologically .. in the opinion of Sam in his former life?!
22 hrs · Edited


Sam Frost
Sam Frost If Paul is actually saying to those in Christ, that “before the resurrection, when the Temple is destroyed, if you die before then, you only have Sheol to look forward to” then I would tell him to take a hike.
1 · 22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Sam Frost Yep. That sounds pretty right..!
22 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost Julienne Chambers we avoided this question like the plague.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers So they went to heaven.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Sam Frost They went into the Presence of Christ in glory. But they were not clothed. Now please do not tell me they were clothed. Because they left their old clothing behind. The tent. The body. OR am I not hearing you. Did you mean something different?
22 hrs · Edited


Sam Frost
Sam Frost we would say, I would say, that this passage reflected the fall of the “Tabernacle” in AD 70, and that’s God’s House in heaven was the “new body” (the corporate body). to ‘be at home’ for Paul was to be in his Jewishness, “at home” in the “body” (old covenant Israel)…such nonsense.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers The royal ‘we’ being you and the other FPs .. well that was not very honest of you!!
22 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost we would avoid it….
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers I have asked this question a few times of FPs because it comes up often. No one has given me an answer.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Which is extremely annoying.
22 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost there is no answer.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers There has to be an answer Sam.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers The resurrection was to occur in the great tribulation. Many Christians died of natural causes or persecution before the great tribulation began.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers So did they go to ‘Abraham’s bosom’ .. to a place of rest and peace .. to wait for the resurrection to take place??
22 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost the problem is, is that the language of “clothing” is used because these verbs are ALSO used for clothing, and so, it is just imported here. The meaning, however, is simply “covering” (which, as you can see, CAN BE clothing). However, if Paul is saying that OUR Tabernacle (our current cover) and God’s House (which is a cover), then this mistake is easily crossed out.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers What is man without a body?! Adam was formed of the dust of the earth and when God breathed life into Adam he became a living soul. Man without a body is less than Man.
22 hrs · Edited


Sam Frost
Sam Frost Man is never “without a body” is “apart from body” or “absent from home” – but, it’s still his home…mortal as it is, but it will be swallowed up.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Man is not a spirit. Or an angel. Jesus became a man so man could become as God. Remember.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers A glorified human being sits at the right hand of God the Father.. ?!
22 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost Amen. The idea of Jesus being without his Incarnate body is anathema to the Gospel.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers But my friend .. you have billions of souls in heaven with Jesus without bodies. Right??!
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers HOW ON EARTH DO YOU GET PAST DAN 12?!
22 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost their bodies, and theirs alone, are currently dead….but their bodies, and uniquely theirs, will be raised….their bodies belong to no one else but them.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers So what do we have .. JESUS in heaven .. glorified .. with the saints .. who are for all intents and purposes naked .. unclothed.
22 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost Julienne Chambers didn’t you read what I wrote….? NOT NAKED, we HAVE a COVERING when we die: GOD’S HOUSE.
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers OK .. HAVE TO GO NOW. Sorry. I have a table of people waiting for me and I have the tickets. Catch you when I can. Keep talking to me Sam.
22 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost The whole point in 2 Cor 5.1-10 is to display to the Corinthians that when any of them died, before the time of being manifested (“made to appear”) in the Tribunal of Christ (resurrection of the dead), that they were not to be “found naked” (they have …See More
22 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost “Nakedness” or “being found naked” is not having a “cover” – the wicked have no “cover” – they do not enter into God’s House upon death. WE DO. Yet, at the resurrection, when the bodies of ALL will be judged, it is much better to be found in God’s House, than with a risen house and NAKED. The wicked dead are without cover, and when they are raised, they will be found NAKED. Therefore, “soul without a body” cannot mean “naked” (as many Greeks thought). I think Paul deliberately uses this phrase that was “in the air” at the time, and had Hellenistic sources. Nakedness is not “soul without a body” – but a soul “without a House!”
22 hrs


Sam Frost
Sam Frost By using Temple motif, Paul says, “well, WE HAVE A HOUSE, even when we are “away from the body”!
2 · 22 hrs


Faye Rod
Faye Rod Sam Frost The Kingdom was given to another nation that would produce the fruit of righteousness. I believe we have this treasure in earthen vessels and just as the the workers were given various coin, we will give an account of our “talent”, the treasure that was entrusted to us, while in this body.
22 hrs


Faye Rod
Faye Rod Julienne Chambers I am just watching and digesting lol! we will wait for you.
1 · 22 hrs


Faye Rod
Faye Rod Sam Frost where does Grace come into play in your understanding?
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Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers 🙂🙂
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Grace..??!!
22 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers A house that is not a body ..?
22 hrs


Faye Rod
Faye Rod Julienne Chambers Forget the grace I was thinking out loud lol
1 · 21 hrs


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart To have died with the Lord Jesus in the first century is to have been raised with Him. The Apostle Paul did not question his identity. It was a fact for him. The Apostle Paul was “living and reigning” with the Lord Jesus. And, even those who have physically died in the Lord Jesus in the first century were ALREADY crucified with Him and risen with Him. Even though they were partakers in the “first resurrection”, they then must need go to Sheol – for the resurrection of the Just and Unjust simply did not take place until 70 AD. We know that the Lord Jesus was quickened by the power of God the Father when He was risen out from among the dead ones in Sheol at His resurrection. In this way, He was the firstborn among many brethren. The Death that was accorded to the Old Creation was put away in 70 AD. Even though the first resurrection happened and there many who lived and reigned with the Lord Jesus prior to His return in Judgment where He ultimately saves those who belong to Him from the wrath of God, the resurrection out from the Death that was accorded in the Old Creation is for ALL in the Old Creation (both the Just and the Unjust.) EVERY MAN was judged according to what they have individually done. But, of course, we know that those who were placed in the Lord Jesus and in His death and resurrection were ALREADY JUDGED! How? Because they were then-ALREADY placed in the Lord Jesus and in His death and resurrection and the Lord Jesus provided for them – at His cross – an identification and REALITY! The gift of faith is remarkable (to say the least) in that this gift apprehends REALITIES that others may say ARE NOT realities. I personally speak with full assurance and confidence, “I am crucified with the Lord Jesus and I am risen with Him!” When we consider what “in glory” means, we do well to know that the Lord Jesus has ALREADY “APPEARED.” Colossians 3:1-4 “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.” To “appear with Him in glory” is something that the Apostle Paul and others must need wait for. I’m confident that when someone is born anew by the power of God the Father today, they are quickened and appear with the Lord Jesus “in glory.” It is this way that I see that when EVERYONE was made alive from the Death that was accorded to the Old Creation (both the Just and the Unjust) at the resurrection in 70 AD, the Just were clothed and those who were ALREADY supernaturally placed in the Lord Jesus and in His death and resurrection (crucified and risen with the Lord Jesus) who were biologically alive and remaining on Earth “were changed.” What WAS NOT AVAILABLE for anyone prior to 70 AD IS AVAILABLE for someone who is made alive in the Lord Jesus today. Let us not forget that there is a “second Death” – a Death that is accorded to the New Creation. The Unjust that were “made alive” out from the death that was accorded to the Old Creation were then subject to the “second Death.” Anyone who physically dies in their sin today is also subject this Death that is accorded to the New Creation (the New Heaven and Earth which we are currently in.) Salvation is truly at the cross of the Lord Jesus. Being saved from the wrath of God that was poured out in 70 AD has to do with being INDIVIDUALLY supernaturally placed and identified in the Lord Jesus and in His death and resurrection. INDIVIDUALS were given an INDIVIDUAL NEW BODY when the Lord returned. The redemption of their INDIVIDUAL BODIES took place. (Covenant Eschatology provides a false gospel and false salvation in fabricating their “Corporate Body View” – very sad to watch play out.) And I go as far as saying that those who were alive and remaining at that time WERE CHANGED and they kept on remaining on Earth. I know that some say there was a unique “rapture” for those who belonged to the Lord Jesus that were physically alive when He returned. I’m inclined to believe in “Individual Body View at regeneration” and not “Individual Body View at death.” (I’m not “dead set” on this – pun intended – but, it is what I “see” for a long time now.) Ed Stevens has a unique rapture in 70 Ad for those who were alive and remaining – in this way they received the “redemption of their individual bodies” (which IBV I respect greatly.) We must certainly take seriously what it means to have “the redemption of the individual’s physical body.” The Just in Sheol received their glorified individual bodies at 70 AD. The Lord Jesus is certainly able to “breath life” into our mortal bodies while journeying here on Earth. I see that the Lord Jesus was quickened at His resurrection (firstborn among many brethren), the Just in Sheol were quickened in 70 AD, those alive and remaining in 70 AD were quickened (and kept on living on Earth), and we who belong to the Lord Jesus today are quickened when we are supernaturally placed in the Lord Jesus and in His death and resurrection. Their is a “glory” to currently behold but, of course, it is beyond natural vision. It takes the gift of faith. Can someone have received their glorified individual body while trapped in an earthen vessel that is somehow “dead” but also having “life breathed into it” by the power of God the Father? Do we change from “glory to glory?” Can we ONLY receive our transformed glorified individuals bodies when we become physically dead? What happens to someone when they physically die? Sheol MUST BE a present reality if the Lord Jesus did not return! The Death accorded to the Old Creation would not have been put away in this case. To be crucified and risen with the Lord Jesus is to never die again – the second Death has no power over anyone who is born anew by the power of God the Father. Whether it is Individual Body View at physical death or, whether it is Individual Body View while still physically alive on Earth, the Individual Body View is the view that glorifies the Lord Jesus and His Gospel. Covenant Eschatology radically messes up God the Father’s salvation and they radically twist the Gospel of God the Father’s grace in His Son in presenting a fabricated and false “Corporate Body View” of salvation that is so ill-defined that most who are disciples of Max King and Don Preston don’t even know what the “Corporate Body View” means.
18 hrs


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart Revelation gives us insight into these matters…
Revelation 6:9-11 “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Revelation 6:12 “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal”…….Revelation 6:17 “For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”…….Revelation 7:9-10 “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.”…….Revelation 7:13-17 “And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
18 hrs


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart Revelation 15:1 “And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.”…….Revelation 15:8 “And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.”

(People simply do not get how the ethno-religious people Israel was an object of God’s wrath – though a remnant be saved! – which also makes CE such a farce!) Revelation 18:20-24 ” Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.”…….Revelation 19:2-3 “For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.”
18 hrs


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart Revelation 19:11 “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”…….Revelation 19:19-20 ” And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”

Revelation 20:4-15 “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
18 hrs


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart Revelation 21:1 “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”…….Revelation 21:22-27 “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Revelation 22:1-5 “And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.”
18 hrs


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart Revelation 22:12-15 ” And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”
18 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Rich.. thanks for sharing that ..^^ I will read it when I have time.
16 hrs


Jack Royce
Jack Royce Shane Mason The resurrection began BEFORE AD70. Jesus said, “The hour is coming and NOW IS when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live. (John 5:25). Many were resurrected when Christ was raised (Matthew 27:51-53).
3 · 16 hrs


Shane Mason
Shane Mason Jack Royce agreed
3 · 12 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Sam Frost wrote: “didn’t you read what I wrote….? NOT NAKED, we HAVE a COVERING when we die: GOD’S HOUSE.” I think I read it but I was quite busy and preoccupied and could not do justice to the discussion or your thoughts last night. I will re read what you wrote and when I can will respond in a more thoughtful manner.
9 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Jack Royce I just saw your comment. I think you need to be more specific. The members of Christ’s Body were resurrected in Him by faith through grace. And they were being changed from glory to glory through the union of Christ and the Church. But they were waiting with eager expectation for the resurrection to occur. It was future to them. Their resurrection anticipated the resurrection that was to occur at the time of the end. Infact, there was an unbroken chain between the resurrection of Jesus, the resurrection that was taking place in Christ’s Body and the resurrection of the just and the unjust at the end of the time of the end. Jesus said, “The hour is coming and NOW IS when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live. “(John 5:25). The resurrection in Dan 12:2 was to take place in the great tribulation BUT it was already taking place in the Body of Christ by faith thru grace. This is a mystery that stretches our minds. Hymanaeus and Philetus were condemned as heretics when they said the resurrection was past. This was a serious issue. If the resurrection had taken place the prophecies in Daniel were false. As was the testimony of Jesus. The resurrection was to occur at the time of the end in the great tribulation. Period. But a resurrection to life was taking place spiritually in the last days. The dead/dry bones of Israel were being resurrected from the grave in the Body of Christ. The metaphor of the ‘body’ was inextricably linked to the prophecy in Ezekiel. When the Spirit was out poured the dry bones of Israel grew flesh and were joined to each other by God in one body. The Body of Christ. So it was not only the ‘dead’ in Sheol that were dead. The living were dead also. Before they died. So the death of Adam was spiritual. Not physical. But by faith through grace the members of Christ’s Body were being resurrected from death under the Law to Life in Christ. This was not an imaginary process. It was real. This transformation was born of objective union. The objective union of God and Man in Christ. And the objective union of Christ and the Church through the Spirit. The Spirit that indwelled the members of Christ’s Body was the guarantee of glory. But as the members of Christ’s Body were being conformed to the likeness of Christ in His sufferings .. they were being transformed into the likeness of Christ in glory. This miraculous process was taking place in the last days between the resurrection of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead. The members of Christ’s Body were still in their mortal, perishable bodies. And when the earthly tent they lived in was torn down they would have a new a building in heaven made by God, “an eternal house not built by human hands.” Since their physical bodies were not made with human hands this was are reference to the Temple. The Temple was temporary. Like the body. But the Temple was going to be


d. And this was going to occur in the great tribulation. The destruction of the Temple would be THE SIGN that the resurrection had taken place. And at the resurrection the dead would put on their new, “heavenly dwelling”. Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5: “2 For in this one we sigh, since we long to put on our heavenly dwelling. 3 Of course, if we do put it on, we will not be found without a body. 4 So while we are still in this tent, we sigh under our burdens, because we do not want to put it off but to put it on, so that our dying bodies may be swallowed up by life.” He was referencing the resurrection in Dan 12. In the great tribulation at the end of the age death would be swallowed up in victory. 1 Cor 15. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians the resurrection was future. Not past. But in the words of Paul, “God has prepared us for this and has given us his Spirit as a guarantee.” The time of the resurrection was the time of the Messiah. And that time that began at the start of the 70th Week when Jesus was anointed for His ministry .. and ended in 70 AD when the 70 Weeks determined by God, expired. The resurrection of the dead occurred at the time of the end. But in the period between the coming of Christ in the first half of the 70th Week and His coming in the last half of the 70th Week a resurrection from death to life was taking place. And what was happening in the Body was inextricably linked to the past and the future .. to the death and resurrection of Jesus .. and the resurrection of the dead at the time of the end. That occurred when the Son of Man came in power and glory to judge Israel and to gather the elect from the 4 winds. …… not finished .. will be back. Sam Frost
7 hrs · Edited


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart Julienne Chambers, With that being said, will you now please answer my previous question? Do you believe in Universal Reconciliation or Universalism in any form? You certainly should have no problem admitting what you believe in a yes or no manner. When someone believes what they believe, they certainly don’t hide it.
7 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers Agh .. I edited my last post ^^^ and I am not done .. and I am busy for quite a while. It is a work in progress so to speak.
7 hrs


Rich Eckhart
Rich Eckhart Julienne Chambers, Do you believe in Universal Reconciliation or Universalism in any form? That’s a very simple “yes” or “no.”
7 hrs


Jack Royce
Jack Royce Julienne Chambers In verse 25 Jesus said that the hour is coming and NOW IS when the the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God. In verses 28-29 he explicitly said that it was about the resurrection from the GRAVES to eternal life and eternal damnation. It’ s that simple.
6 hrs


Julienne Chambers
Julienne Chambers That simple. And that challenging. I hoped you would bring something of substance to the table. Was there a resurrection of the dead shortly after the resurrection of Jesus?? Was there another resurrection in the great tribulation? In the first instance the bodies of the saint rose literally from their graves. Did this happen at the end of the age? If it did why were there no witnesses? It there was a resurrection but it did not happen in exactly the same way, why not? Why were H and P so sternly rebuked as heretics when they said the resurrection was past .. if there was a bodily resurrection shortly after the resurrection of Jesus? I have so many questions. How about answering some of them?? ☹️
48 mins · Edited