- Date:
- 16 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 22:04:18
Comments
Luke 11 and Matthew 23 are not prophetic passages. They're not talking about the order and timing of events that were to happen in the authors' futures. Surely even a futurist can see this!
- Date:
- 16 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 23:28:35
Comments
THE FLAWED HERMENEUTIC OF THE PARTIAL PRETERIST - NO CHART NEEDED! =) So, who's comparing Luke 11 with Matthew 23? I haven't seen this used as an argument ANYWHERE in support of the Preterist view, have you? Notice what he does with the parallel passages of Luke 17 and Matthew 24. He simply makes an ASSERTION. This is the logical fallacy of a false analogy. Just because he can pick two passages that deal with the SAME SUBJECT, but don't happen to be parallel, doesn't mean that all similar passages are not parallel. What evidence does he give to support his ASSERTION? NONE, Nada, diddly-squat. Now, that's what I call scholarship! Wasn't the whole point of Pastor Cook's chart of Luke 11 and Matthew 23 to show that Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are not parrallel passages, just similar language, and therefore - NOT THE SAME EVENTS. (Which obviously, as pointed out, a logical fallacy because Pastor Cook is using other verses.) But I also want to point out in Pastor Cook's chart, aren't these non-parrallel passages - IN REGARDS TO THE SAME EVENT? After all, wouldn't the Partial Preterist say that the "woes" to the Pharisees were fulfilled at 70AD? Of course they would =)
- Date:
- 16 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 23:39:16
-
Comments
Revelation 5 (Partial Preterists say is a past judgment) and Revelation 20 and 21 are said to be future (by Partial Preterists). Daniel 7 seems to combine the two. Are they the same judgment? Something to think about. Revelation 5 11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" Daniel 7 "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. 10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. Revelation 20 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Revelation 20 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire Revelation 21 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life NOTICE - "TEN THOUSAND TIMES TEN THOUSAND" IN REVELATION 5 AND DANIEL 7. NOTICE THE BOOKS ARE OPENED IN REVELATION 20 AND DANIEL 7 If Pastor Cook is gonna try to pull the "similar language does not mean the same event" argument here. MAYBE HE COULD JUST TELL US WHAT BOOKS WERE OPENED WHEN JESUS TOOK HIS SEAT? HE IS SEATED - RIGHT PARTIAL PRETERIST? OF COURSE HE IS =)
- Date:
- 17 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 01:22:00
Comments
You mean different gospels portray Jesus saying the same things, but on different occasions and in different orders?? How shocking! Not. Pastor Cook is evidently only now discovering this common phenomenon in the harmonies of the gospels. Now *that's* a little shocking. <sigh> Well, on the bright side, at least he doesn't call himself a doctor. --Dave
- Date:
- 17 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 07:01:19
- Remote User:
Comments
Great comments! I see I struck a nerve. My point is this, the chart that shows the comparrison of Luke 17 with Matthew 24 does not stand on the merits of the 1) arrows and 2) same or simlar language. I will call it the "Day of the Lord " falacy". Luke 21 is the parrallel passage of Matthew 24! Now that's "harmony of the gospels"! Pastor Cook
- Date:
- 17 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 11:04:12
Comments
Pastor Cook - obviously they dont teach LOGICAL FALLACY 101 at the Bahnsen Theological Seminary. THE DO HOWEVER, teach the "I CAN GET AROUND THAT VERSE" hermeneutic. Seems to be the most popular class! Maybe next - you can make a really cool chart about when Daniel 12 did or didn't take place. =)
- Date:
- 17 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 11:39:22
- Remote User:
Comments
Still waiting on Pastor Cook's chart of DANIEL 12. =)
- Date:
- 18 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 03:25:20
Comments
It is probably the least remarkable occurance that Jesus should say different things at different places and different times - that yet teach the same principles. Combining these two based on the fact that they are about the same subject, they give us greater insight into Jesus' views about the '(self?)righteousness' of the pharisees in Jesus' earthly days. Jesus' consistency in His teachings does not refute preterism. On the contrary, it establishes it. Look beyond the tree in front. There is a forest. These are indeed not "parallel verses," but they are truly parallel teachings and incredibly consistent. Witnessed to by different writers at different times, they both glean the same messages from amongst Jesus' teachings, which, "there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books ...." The only argument this chart would refute is one that says Jesus' teachings are inconsistent. In that light, lets hang onto it ... we may need it ... but not to discuss preterism.
- Date:
- 18 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 08:15:25
- Remote User:
Comments
PASTOR COOK: "....the chart that shows the comparrison [sic] of Luke 17 with Matthew 24 does not stand on the merits of ....same or simlar [sic] language. I will call it the 'Day of the Lord' falacy."[sic] MY RESPONSE: Lk. 17:23-37 and Matt. 24:17-41 consist of the same subject matter. Lk. 11:39-52 and Matt. 23:6-36 also consist of the same subject matter. These facts are self-evident. --Dave
- Date:
- 19 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 04:35:17
Comments
There is a saying that Democracy is a "bad" form of Government but all of the others are so much worse. This is the way I feel about preterism. It is an exhatology that has some questions - possibly some holes - but ALL the others are so much worse. Time after time I see individuals taking pot shots at preterism by taking one single element - as if preterism is a hodge-podge theological system (like dispensational premillenialism). No One takes attempts to dismantle preterism stone by stone. Frankly, all Pastor Cook needs to do for me is to consistently, and with proper hermeneutics, explain the passage in Daniel 12 regarding the "Holy People" and the fulfillment of the resurrection. Explain how not one jot or tittle of the law has passed since heaven and earth have not passed (especially in light of Luke 16:16). Explain a careful translation of II Timothy 4: 1, and Acts 24:15. Explain all of the passages containing the word "mello". If this can be done in at all an educated and reasonable fashion I could consider preterism as a fallacy. So far, preterism makes so much more biblical sense than the others, despite long traditions.
- Date:
- 19 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 10:35:16
- Remote User:
Comments
Desperately grasping at straws.
- Date:
- 19 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 16:51:34
- Remote User:
Comments
What's an orthodox pastor to do? I tried challenging Ken Davies to a public debate but he passed me off to his budy H.L. James. Why I will never know. However, everyone who has listened to that debate has been embarressed for H.L. and the indefensible nature of full- preterism. If you cant stand behind the leaders (preterist talk show hosts) to defend this nonsense then dont get made at the pastor when he makes a cute little chart to show one more weak link in the system. I stand behind my debate which, by the way, can be listened to from the link on this site. signed, Pastor Gene Cook, Jr.
- Date:
- 19 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 20:47:26
- Remote User:
Comments
Although I disagree with Pastor Cook's hermeneutic, I understand what he is trying to say. (I'm a full preterist, by the way, who does not have all the answers.) Yes, Luke 23 and Mt 24 are parallel passages, but I have to also maintain that Jesus prophecy in Luke 176 and Matthew 24 are speaking of the same (single)prophecy. I would please like Pastor Cook to explain how they are NOT. I respectfully place the burden of proof upon him to do this, since the Bible only speaks to one "Second Coming" coinciding with one "Final Judgment" and one arrival of the Kingdom. Please prove that it does not. I also ask Pastor Cook to please read the article entitled "Preterist ApoLOGICetic", which may help him understand a little more about full preterism. Perhaps we can all learn something from each other. Thank you.
- Date:
- 19 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 20:48:34
Comments
PS Luke 17, not Luke 176. You know what I mean!
- Date:
- 19 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 22:23:34
Comments
Pastor Cook - you are a skilled debater. OJ had great lawyers too. That doesn't mean that he wasn't guilty. I left your church because of HL James debate with you. I don't know of anyone who became a Partial Preterist because of your debate. Some of us trust the DNA (word of God) evidence. We don't rely on the theatrics of the lawyers to find the truth.
- Date:
- 19 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 22:26:10
Comments
PS - Pastor Cook - I tried to arrange for you to have a debate with Don Preston - hosted by FISH radio station in LA. You did not respond.
- Date:
- 19 Aug 2002
- Time:
- 22:27:20
Comments
When I first saw the chart and read the bold print below I thought it was comedy relief from a preterist!!! After realizing it was not...I laughed out loud!!!! TracyV
I find it hard to listen to anyone that can not see something as plain as baptism in Jesus name or the need for baptism for salvation..... if you want verses about this. email me @ im1ness@yahoo.com
Hello, i dont think that the Trinity is true because of the scriptures that you use. Matt 28:19, and Acts 2:38 Jesus says one thing while peter says another, Peter was full of the Holy Ghost while Jesus was the Holy Ghost. Acts 4:12 says that the name of Jesus is the only name in which we Must be Saved. And God is not a name, only a title, like Baal, Muhammand. God is not a name, only a title.
