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David S. Clark - The Message From Patmos: A Postmillennial Commentary on the Book of Revelation (1921) "This early twentieth-century Postmillennial commentary on the Book of Revelation, written by the father of theologian Gordon Clark, offers an easy-to-read alternative to the popular Pre-millennial/Dispensational views of the best-selling Scofield Reference Bible and a multitude of other dissertations on end-time prophecy that litter the shelves of Christian bookstores. "


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HISTORICAL PRETERISM
(Minor Fulfillment of Matt. 24/25 or Revelation in Past)

Joseph Addison
Oswald T. Allis
Thomas Aquinas
Karl Auberlen
Augustine
Albert Barnes
Karl Barth
G.K. Beale
Beasley-Murray
John Bengel
Wilhelm Bousset
John A. Broadus

David Brown
"Haddington Brown"
F.F. Bruce

Augustin Calmut
John Calvin
B.H. Carroll
Johannes Cocceius
Vern Crisler
Thomas Dekker
Wilhelm De Wette
Philip Doddridge
Isaak Dorner
Dutch Annotators
Alfred Edersheim
Jonathan Edwards

E.B. Elliott
Heinrich Ewald
Patrick Fairbairn
Js. Farquharson
A.R. Fausset
Robert Fleming
Hermann Gebhardt
Geneva Bible
Charles Homer Giblin
John Gill
William Gilpin
W.B. Godbey
Ezra Gould
Hank Hanegraaff
Hengstenberg
Matthew Henry
G.A. Henty
George Holford
Johann von Hug
William Hurte
J, F, and Brown
B.W. Johnson
John Jortin
Benjamin Keach
K.F. Keil
Henry Kett
Richard Knatchbull
Johann Lange

Cornelius Lapide
Nathaniel Lardner
Jean Le Clerc
Peter Leithart
Jack P. Lewis
Abiel Livermore
John Locke
Martin Luther

James MacDonald
James MacKnight
Dave MacPherson
Keith Mathison
Philip Mauro
Thomas Manton
Heinrich Meyer
J.D. Michaelis
Johann Neander
Sir Isaac Newton
Thomas Newton
Stafford North
Dr. John Owen
 Blaise Pascal
William W. Patton
Arthur Pink

Thomas Pyle
Maurus Rabanus
St. Remigius

Anne Rice
Kim Riddlebarger
J.C. Robertson
Edward Robinson
Andrew Sandlin
Johann Schabalie
Philip Schaff
Thomas Scott
C.J. Seraiah
Daniel Smith
Dr. John Smith
C.H. Spurgeon

Rudolph E. Stier
A.H. Strong
St. Symeon
Theophylact
Friedrich Tholuck
George Townsend
James Ussher
Wm. Warburton
Benjamin Warfield

Noah Webster
John Wesley
B.F. Westcott
William Whiston
Herman Witsius
N.T. Wright

John Wycliffe
Richard Wynne
C.F.J. Zullig

Committee Paper Investigating Full Preterism

Harvest Community Church (PCA) calls Preterism "heresy"
Final Draft, 5/15/1999
Approved by Heartland Presbytery action #99-71, 8/20/1999

Dr. Kelly Nelson Birks Refutes the "Committee Paper on Full Preterism."

This paper was generated by the Heartland Presbytery of the PCA, as a result of Dr. Kelly Birks (former Teaching Elder -Pastor- of the Presbyterian Church in America), becoming a "full Preterist." Dr. Birks was never allowed to respond to the Presbytery or the "Committee on Full Preterism" as to the allegations made against him. In response to the poor exegesis demonstarted by this committee's paper, Dr. Birks has made available two audio tapes of live on air refutation of the various arguments against Preterism by the PCA committee.

If you would like these tapes, send your request to:
Messiah Tape Ministry (Refutation Tapes) 535 S. 84th St. Omaha, NE. 68114

Make your check or money order out to: "Messiah Tape Ministry"
For the amount of: $10.00 (Ten dollars) which includes shipping and handling.


Definition of Full Preterism

The terms "full preterism," "consistent preterism," "hyper-preterism," "radical preterism," and "Hymenaenism" have all been used with varying degrees of positive or negative connotations to define the same system of thought. A simplistic definition of a full preterist is a person who believes that all the prophecies of the Scripture have been fulfilled. Full preterism has at least the following characteristics:

1. A belief that the Second Coming of Christ has already occurred and no further bodily appearing is expected,

2. A belief that the resurrection has already happened and that therefore there will be no future physical resurrection of our present mortal bodies;

3. A belief that the final judgment of all men has already taken place (in 70 AD), the time when the separation of the goats and sheep (Matthew 25) took place, and that there is to be no future day of judgment for all mankind.

Full preterism is truly a unique system of eschatology with a unique hermeneutical approach to many passages. Full preterists are not to be confused with those who teach a preteristic (fulfilled in the past) interpretation of some passages. All orthodox theologians have taken a preteristic interpretation of many prophetic passages (primarily those related to Christ’s first coming, but also to passages prophesying Christ’s judgment in 70 AD). In contrast to orthodoxy, full preterism teaches that all prophecy has been fulfilled. This paper is not an exposition of the system, but an elucidation of some of the key heretical teachings.

 

 

Brief demonstration of the heretical and far reaching implications of full preterism, contrasting Biblical statements with full preterist statements

 

Full Preterists agree that the impact of this doctrine touches far more than just eschatology. Full Preterist John Noe says, "Indeed, a correct view of this consummated reality truly does matter. The consequences of misunderstanding or saying that this resurrection hasn’t happened yet are devastating." Conversely the apostle Paul assures us that to believe that the resurrection is past is devastating since it has the potential to "overthrow the faith" and "spread like cancer" (2 Tim. 2:17-18). The following quotes demonstrate the reality of this in several areas of doctrine.

     

  1. Christology

       

    1. Nature of Christ’s resurrection body

         

      1. Scripture which is contradicted

         

        "‘Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, "Have you any food here?" So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence." (Luke 24:39-43)

        "Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne." (Acts 2:30)

        Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking of the temple of His body." (John 2:19-21)

        "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Rom. 8:11)

        "For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones." (Eph. 5:30)

         

      2. Full Preterist quotes

         

      "Christ was resurrected not so much by the act of reanimating His earthly body, but by escaping Death and Hades… Christ’s reanimation of His earthly form wasn’t the resurrection itself, it was the byproduct – and proof – of His resurrection. And even Christ was not raised to be ‘in the flesh’."

      "He was raised into the same body He used before He died. This was done to prove to the disciples that He had kept His word… He now appeared to His followers at need, having the same properties as the angels."

       

    2. Nature of Christ’s mediatorial reign

         

      1. Scripture which is contradicted

         

        1 Corinthians 15:20-28,50-58 with Rev. 20:7-15)

         

      2. Full Preterist quotes

         

    "Almost all full preterists believe the millennium occurred during the period from AD 30-70, and that Christ returned in AD 70 at the end of that millennial period."

    "The 40-year transition period was a period of ‘already, but not yet.’ When Christ returned at AD 70 He finished crushing the enemies of His Father’s reign, took the kingdom away from them, gave it back to the Father to whom it belonged, then sat down at His right side to rule eternally with Him."

     

  2. Anthropology

       

    1. A low view of our present bodies

         

      1. Scripture which is contradicted

         

        "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not!" (1 Cor. 6:15)

        "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s." (1 Cor. 6:19-20)

        "Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body." (Rom. 8:23)

        "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service." (Rom. 12:1)

        "For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church." (Eph. 5:29)

         

      2. Full Preterist quotes

         

      "We are not interested in this old body surviving."

      "Our emotional attachment to them [our bodies] will be no different than our attachment to those body parts we cut off and discarded last week – hair, fingernails, etc."

      "…when the shell is discarded, a new and better form can be inhabited."

      "Look carefully at what the resurrection of the body is called in Rom. 8:23b. ‘…also we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly expecting adoption, the redemption of our body.’ The Greek word for ‘redemption’ is APOLUTRO. It means ‘to be set free from.’ Here, Paul is referring to eagerly awaiting to be set free from our bodies! Sounds like a new creation to me."

       

    2. A defective view of Adam and Eve’s pre-fall bodies

         

      1. Scripture which is contradicted

         

        "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: … to dust you shall return" (Gen. 3:17-19)

        "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12)

        "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses…" (Rom. 5:14)

        "For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one…" (Rom. 5:17)

        you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: … to dust you shall return" (Gen. 3:17-19)

         

        "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12)

        "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses…" (Rom. 5:14)

        "For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one…" (Rom. 5:17)

         

      2. Full Preterist quotes

         

      "This infers that Adam and Eve would have physically died even if they hadn’t sinned and been cast out of the garden."

      "‘For it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this to face the judgment’ (Heb 9:27). That [physical life] wasn’t lost in Adam, therefore, it’s not restored in Christ, nor will it be."

      "Physical death of the old physical body remains the natural consequence of being created human."

       

    3. A defective view of our resurrection bodies

         

      1. Scripture which is contradicted

         

        "And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God…" (Job. 19:26)

        "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2)

        "Your dead shall live; together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; for your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." (Isaiah 26:19)

        "…the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many." (Matthew 27:52)

        "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth..." (John 5:28)

        "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Rom. 8:11)

        "The body is sown in corruption, it is raise in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." (1 Cor. 15:42-44)

        "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thes. 5:23)

        "For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection." (Rom. 6:5; compare with Luke 24:39-43 and 1 Corinthians 15:12-23)

         

      2. Full Preterist quotes

         

    "It is not the physical body which is raptured. It is the Christian himself who is raptured as he leaves his body behind and takes on a new body forever."

    "Paul calls the resurrection body, which God ‘gives’ a believer in Heaven, a ‘spiritual body’ (1 Cor. 15:38,44), not a ‘resurrected (physical) body.’"

    "That’s the discontinuity between Jesus’ resurrection and ours. He was the only one promised His same earthly body back, the one that was nailed to the cross. It was changed into a resurrected body that was similar yet quite different from His natural body. All Jesus’ followers, however, receive a new spiritual body that is like Jesus’ resurrected body. That’s a continuity. But it is not an old resurrected physical body."

    Commenting on 1 Corinthians 15, Harden says, "It does not say that we shall be raised in exactly the same manner as Christ. In fact, what is implicit here is that we shall not be raised in the same way." (Emphasis his.)

    "This [Luke 20:34-36] shows that after the resurrection at A.D. 70 in the afterlife, the state of man is like that of the angels. Angels are spiritual creatures, members of the heavenly realm. Can they be seen, touched, handled? Not under normal conditions."

    "Sproul’s fallacy here is in thinking that the term body must of necessity be physical."

    "His work of resurrection has nothing to do with reconstituting decomposed or alive human bodies at some unscriptural ‘end of time.’ This tradition of men, like others before, has made the word of God of little or no effect…"

     

  3. Cosmology

       

    1. Death and decay not result of the fall but result of Creation

         

      1. Scripture which is contradicted

         

        See Genesis 3:14-19 for curse on cattle, every beast of the field, etc. But especially note the following: "Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.’" (Gen. 3:17-19)

        "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12)

        "For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one.…" (Rom. 5:17)

        "For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body." (Rom. 8:19-23)

         

      2. Full Preterist quotes

         

      "… physical death was part of creation from the beginning."

      "That [physical life] wasn’t lost in Adam, therefore it’s not restored in Christ, nor will it be."

      "Physical death of the old physical body remains the natural consequence of being created human."

      "The question is whether physical death was the ‘Death’ God judicially threatened on the day of Adam’s disobedience, or whether physical death was the natural consequence of being human and made from dust."

       

    2. The eternality of this present world (including death and suffering)

         

      1. Scripture which is contradicted

         

        "For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:25-26)

        "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." (Rev. 21:4)

        "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless." (2 Pet. 3:10-14)

         

      2. Full Preterist quotes

         

      "… the world, the universe, the kingdom, the Church age, biblically have no end.… Therefore, they have no last day, last hour, last minute, last second, or last anything in which to place a resurrection."

      "Comparatively, just as sin didn’t cease to exist after Jesus put it away, physical death was not eliminated by its final defeat. Jesus never meant that believers would not continue to die physically. ‘For it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this to face the judgment’ (Heb 9:27). That [physical life] wasn’t lost in Adam, therefore, it’s not restored in Christ, nor will it be."

      "I believe there is a long future ahead of us on this planet…Millions or billions of generations (or even eternity) may be more like it."

       

    3. No renovated new earth to come back to. Those who leave earth will only be in heaven

         

      1. Scripture which is contradicted

         

        "For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith" (Rom. 4:13)

        "By faith Abraham… sojourned in the land of promise as in a foreign country…not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth… And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us." (Heb. 11:8,9,13,39,40)

        "Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth." (Matt. 5:5)

        "For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body." (Rom. 8:19-23)

         

      2. Full Preterist quotes

         

    "The Scriptures state we ‘shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever’ (Ps 23:6b). That’s in Heaven, not on a renovated New Earth 2."

     

  4. Pneumatology

       

    1. Biblical Statements that are contradicted

      "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." (Eph. 1:13-14)

      "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Eph. 4:30)

       

    2. Full Preterist Quotes

       

"If the transition period for Pneumatology is over, the transition period of eschatology must also be over."

"What I find interesting in Gentry’s statements here, is that he seems to leave himself hopelessly vulnerable to the charismatics’ arguments for a continuation of the miraculous sign gifts, when he says that we today still ‘have the outpoured Holy Spirit and His gift of teachers.’ Full preterists don’t believe that." [Note: Ed Steven’s is responding to Gentry’s article that called full preterism heresy and outside the Orthodox faith. Gentry is a partial preterist like Sproul.]

"If Gentry does not take a preterist approach to these passages [Acts 2:17ff; 1 Cor. 1:5-8; 1 Cor. 13:8ff], he leaves himself defenseless against the charismatic view. But if he does take a preterist approach here, his statement that we still ‘have the outpoured Holy Spirit and His gift of teachers’ seems inconsistent and contradictory."

"The ‘earnest of the Spirit,’ therefore, is tied to the outworking of God’s promise to ISRAEL. This is not an age-long operation, but the focus is on ‘the last days’ of historic Judaism. The purpose of the Spirit, in its manifold gifts and operations, was to accomplish the change that was decisively determined in Christ’s death and resurrection. Paul said that God has wrought us for ‘this very thing.’ The change belonged to Paul’s time. The supernatural gifts of the Spirit belong to his time. That from which the change was being made belonged to his time. The consummation of the change belonged to his time (1 Cor. 10:11; Rom. 13:11,12; Heb. 6:1-6)."

 

Creedal Issues

     

  1. Ancient Creeds

       

    1. Apostles’ Creed

      "The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost… the resurrection of the body…"

       

    2. Nicene Creed

       

      "We believe … And he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead… And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

       

    3. Athanasian Creed

       

    "Whosoever will be saved: before all things, it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith: Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled: without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this… [body of text] From whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith: which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved."

     

  2. The Westminster Confession of Faith

    1. Full preterists who deny that Romans 8:23 teaches "the redemption of our body" but rather insist that it means "escape from our body" would be out of accord at the following place in the Confession: WCF 32:1.

    2. Full preterists who deny that our mortal bodies will rise from the grave, and that these bodies are "the self-same bodies, and none other" than that which we now possess would be out of accord at the following places in the Confession: WCF 32:2; 32:3.

    3. Full preterists who deny that Christ's body that came out of the grave was and continues to be His resurrection body are out of accord with the following places in the Confession : WCF 8:4.

    4. Full preterists who deny that Christ's body is of the same nature as our resurrection bodies are out of accord with the following place in the Confession : 32:3

    5. Full preterists who deny that there is still to come a physical, bodily, Second Coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are out of accord with the following places in the Confession : WCF 33:1,2,3.

    6. Full preterists who deny that there is a future final day of judgment of the righteous and of the unrighteous are out of accord with the following places in the Confession : WCF 33:1,2,3.

    7. Full preterists who deny that the Holy Spirit continues to give spiritual gifts, or that the Holy Spirit continues to be our "earnest," or who deny that we are "sealed to the day of redemption" by the Holy Spirit are out of accord with the following places in the Confession and should be noted as holding either scruples, notations or exceptions: WCF 12:1; 18:2; 26:1.

    8. Full preterists who deny that Satan and his demons continued to be present adversaries to the souls of the righteous after 70 AD are out of accord with the following places in the Confession and should be noted as holding either scruples, notations or exceptions: WCF 5:6; 17:3; 21:1.

     

     

  3. The Westminster Larger Catechism

    The Full Preterist position is in contradiction to at least the following sections of the WLC: 28,52,53,54, 56,85,86,87,121,145,158,167,176,191,195.

     

  4. The Westminster Shorter Catechism

The full Preterist position is in contradiction to at least the following portions of the WSC: 28,102.

 

A bibliography is available to those who request it.

What do YOU think ?

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Date:
27 Mar 2002
Time:
13:58:20

Comments

Were did they find this parallel in scripture about the four beasts of old testament and new testament. This Christian Media Network sounds kind off the wall if you ask me. My bible says That in this life you will have tribulations--, there has always been and always will be.


Date:
27 Mar 2002
Time:
15:13:22

Comments

So close to the truth (he can repudiate preterism) yet so far away (he really has no clue).


Date:
27 Mar 2002
Time:
20:39:32

Comments

My goodness, these people don't like anyone do they. From their Website: "The BOOK is $39.95 (+ $3.75 postage & handling) for a total of $37.70" Hmmm, just like the article. Something doesn't add up right . Ah well, one more opportunity to love and pray for those who . . . Charley Fines


Date:
27 Mar 2002
Time:
21:22:04

Comments

To both Mikes: thanks for speaking to each other in a spirit of love. Jesus is proud! I listened to Herbert W. Armstrong and his son, Garner Ted, of the WCG on the radio back in the 60's. They were directly responsible for me beginning to read the Bible for myself. Eventually I read above and below the verses they quoted and moved on to new lessons, but they provided material freely and NEVER dunned me for money. Their history shows a willingness to be convinced of error by Scripture and they much deserve the respect and consideration they were given in the original letter. Charley Fines


Date:
28 Mar 2002
Time:
06:45:16

Comments

It would be nice if someone is going to present the preterist view they would do it correctly. If Preterist are so wrong, why is it we can read the the scriptures without twisting and bending and having to have a special code book to interpret it?The Truth is, The Word means what it says,it says it plainly in to many places to be misunderstood. Our responsibility is to believe it. (Will You)?


Date:
28 Mar 2002
Time:
07:40:31
Remote User:

Comments

I am a retired Baptist pastor and spent my entire life studying Scripture trying to deal with one problem verse after another. The difficulty I have encountered is the unwillingness of men to change from the traditionalism of any form of futurism,as was ancient Judaism, because the price to be paid meant to be ostracized, maligned and considered 'insane'. If you can answer the expositions of Scripture on the http://preteristarchive.com/ WEB site I am ready to 'examine the Scritpures with you'. Men have been warning us that the 'sky is falling' for centuries and thousands have said, prove it! Robert G. Williams usmc1div@earthlink.net Columbus was considered insane when he advocated that the earth was not flat and for centuries men had ignored that the Sovereign God sat up on the "circle of the earth". Men, have in thousands of instances said, "That's impossible"! The impossible is being realized every day, including some men who refuse to be bound to tradition and are willing to pay the price to have a consistent interpretation of Scriptures, without any 'GAPS'. What Jesus said was REALIZED. I can not ask anything in Jesus' name, believing, and it WILL BE DONE! The early believers, prior to 70 A.D., realized this truth consistently. I have all condidence in God and his Son, Jesus Christ, and I still have to wear glasses! I have not been able to raise anyone from the dead, heal illnesses IMMEDIATELY....ETC.. ETC.... As the Bard said, "What fools these mortals be".


Date:
28 Mar 2002
Time:
07:57:39
Remote User:

Comments

Wow!!! So much hate in such little space. Everything's heresy except what He believes. This article is disheartening for those who take Bible study seriously. He must see himself as a "Lord" over men's faith.


Date:
28 Mar 2002
Time:
08:16:47
Remote User:

Comments

Adhomenims and innane rhetoric seem to be the main postulations of just about all the Critics of Preterism. How refreshing it would be to see even one of these critics address the more than 100 time imminence verses in Scripture. But this will not happen, because if one of them ever does they are going to ultimately end up proving Preterism to be Biblical. Classic to this situation is the recent admission by Christian News and Mr. Gheissler admitting they don't have sufficient knowledge of the subject, yet having the temerity to write and publish an article condemning the view. The Preterists leaders need to get tough! I've been saying this over and over, formerly on my radion program and numerous times in my emails to them. "Take off the gloves" and clobber these blaspheming false teachers who would make Christ a liar!


Date:
28 Mar 2002
Time:
08:18:57
Remote User:

Comments

The use of Acts 27:10 to suggest that Paul made a prediction(prophecy??) that did not occur is more than a little misleading. The Youngs Literal says the following: `Men, I perceive that with hurt, and much damage, not only of the lading and of the ship, but also of our lives -- the voyage is about to be;' Paul goes onto to say: 21 And there having been long fasting, then Paul having stood in the midst of them, said, `It behoved [you], indeed, O men -- having hearkened to me -- not to set sail from Crete, and to save this hurt and damage; 22 and now I exhort you to be of good cheer, for there shall be no loss of life among you -- but of the ship; 23 for there stood by me this night a messenger of God -- whose I am, and whom I serve -- 24 saying, Be not afraid Paul; before Caesar it behoveth thee to stand; and, lo, God hath granted to thee all those sailing with thee; 25 wherefore be of good cheer, men! for I believe God, that so it shall be, even as it hath been spoken to me, 26 and on a certain island it behoveth us to be cast.' I believe this gentlemens answer contains a false premise: Trying to equate a perception made by Paul which he later clarifies from information given to him by a messenger from God to epistles written directly by Paul to Christians in the 1st Century is not a valid comparison. Perhaps the Apostles were not infallible in their day-to-day lives otherwise they would have been without sin which it seems would be impossible. I agree with the orginal assessment that if we cannot trust Paul with time statements than i cannot see how we can trust him in other areas of scripture. Who among us is smart enough to deterimine what in his epistles is directly from God versus wishful thinking on Paul's part. I stand with Paul and the other Apostles they new what they were speaking of. Below is an example of Paul acknowledging when he does not know something but the Lord knows. 2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I could go into more detail on this topic. Regards, Christopher C. King


Date:
28 Mar 2002
Time:
12:32:25

Comments

Are you kidding me? I'm amazed that this writer knows so much about what I believe and think! I didn't realize that I believe half the stuff I do! "Patch" (Full, not partial!) PS How does he know he's correct?


Date:
28 Mar 2002
Time:
14:37:06

Comments

Silly Stuff! Please People you can do better than this!


Date:
29 Mar 2002
Time:
09:15:44

Comments

Over and over again Preterist critics refuse to exposite Scripture and simply seek to insight fear. But this one takes the cake. I wonder, did the author(s) simply make things up and do they actually have evidence to support any of their claims? The author(s) claim that preterists are "not antagonistic to the Papists" and that we "view Catholicism as a like-minded post-millennial perspective." Please! When is the Church actually going to begin some real debate on this issue? <p>"Preterists tend to be scholarly, and more of them have a more intimate familiarity with scripture than the average rapture cultist. This gives them another major advantage as they propagate their false doctrine." True, but the corollary means that articles like this one can easily promote fear in the hearts of our less scholarly brethern. Which, of course, is the goal anyway.


Date:
30 Mar 2002
Time:
03:58:40

Comments

I am Preterist and the study of the "end times" being fulfilled all makes sence to me. This article (Christian Media Network Condemns "Preterist Apostasy") is difficult to understand. Steve


Date:
30 Mar 2002
Time:
14:20:59
Remote User:

Comments

so close yet so far away


Date:
31 Mar 2002
Time:
18:18:55
Remote User:

Comments

"...they believe in being integrated into the larger societal form of Western style government in order to influence the political constructs of our time..." If only it were true!


Date:
27 Oct 2003
Time:
20:32:36

Comments

sounds like heresy to me!


ate: 01 Sep 2009
Time: 17:45:33

Your Comments:

Does anyone know what this Heartland Presbytery action #99-71 actually did? Was Birks removed from the denomination? Was his ordination removed? Thanks

 

 

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