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When is Preterism taken too far?  Is it possible to take fulfillment beyond the point of Scriptural warrant?  At what point has the declaration of past fulfillment overstepped biblical bounds?  Naturally, it depends on who you ask.  For instance, strict Futurists would say that making AD70 the only fulfillment for any of the Olivet Discourse (as opposed to those events serving as a type of the future tribulation) would be taking fulfillment too far.  Historical preterists would say that declaring the parousia, great white throne judgment, and general resurrection to be strictly in the past crosses the line into hyper preterism -- and wouldn't the entirety of (non full-pret) Christianity throughout all ages agree at least that far?  Many, in fact, would go much farther, declaring that anyone who taught that the coming, judgment and resurrection of the dead were past events are outside of the Christian faith altogether.   However, what makes the discussion more interesting is that even full preterists believe that there is some point where fulfillment has been taken too far.     A virtually unanimous example of this would include the declarations by certain full preterists that the gospel was only for the pre-AD70 era.  (Less consensus is found on the issues of the cessation of baptism and the Lord's Supper.)   First, then, there is no proper denying that there is such a thing as hyper preterism.   Secondary is the issue of whether or not hyper preterism is worthy to be held in contempt.  Another consideration is this:  If such large segments of preterists are actually hyper preterists, then what is true preterism?

How Much is Too Much?

This page will explore these concerns by posting perceived examples of hyper preterism.   Various possibilities will be offered for the definition and identification of "hyper preterism," using full preterist assertions as the grounds for investigation.    Full preterists are encouraged to participate by either posting assent or dissent regarding whether these assertions should qualify as hyper preterism... and whether that is grounds for separation.    Lack of dissent, or the belittling of the investigation, would seem to imply consent.    If anyone now disclaims comments posted here that they have made in the past, I will gladly make note of that shift away from hyper preterism in the appropriate place.   (under construction)

WHY IS THE HYPER-PRETERIST INVESTIGATION IMPORTANT?

• Because few FPs really believe that every wind of doctrine is just "another legitimate alternative."

• Because denying hyper preterism exists (or belittling its investigation) encourages the accumulation of error.

• Because denying hyper preterism exists (or belittling its investigation) discourages those studying preterism.

• Because a growing number of reasonable former full preterists are saying that the system is fundamentally flawed.

• Because if it isn't true that so much ceased in AD70, then a horrible eschatological error is being spread.

• Because if eschatology and salvation are so closely linked, grievous errors in one would be grievous errors in the other.

 

LATEST ADDITION

• Chris Livingston definition of Hyper-Preterism: "As you may have noticed, in the forum on ZECH 14, I'm dialoging with a guy called RiversofEden who calls himself a Preterist, and he thinks Christianity was always and only for genetic Jews, but that it also went extinct at 70 AD.  So, I think that an over-significance can be made of 70 AD. Judgment of Jerusalem. Yes.  Fulfillment of all prophecy concerning the long-awaited beginning of Christ's Kingdom, the Coming of the Son of Man, and Judean Judgment?  Yes.  Extinction of the New Covenant and the Church in its infancy?  No.  Obsolescence of the Sermon on the Mount?  No. Cessation of the activity of the person, who is quoted in the Book of Acts, known as the Holy Spirit?  Only to the degree that believers refuse to separate from iniquity and statist idolatry." ("The Over-Significance of AD70" -http://planetpreterist.com/news-5441.html#38214)

• Would any Full Preterist deny that this is hyper-preterism? I don't think the old covenant ceased at the cross of Christ. It was done at the destruction of Jerusalem. After the cross, its began to fade away as we've seen in the book of Hebrews. The new covenant began on the Day of Pentecost which the saints were filled with the holy spirit and Christ was their King. Now, this may be an interesting part, the judgment began at 66 AD when the saints were "raised" and "received" the thrones of kingdom with the parousia of Christ at that time, not 70 AD yet. See Rev. 11:15-19; Matt. 19:28; and Luke 22:30. The old covenant and the new covenant were overlaping during 30-70 AD. It seems that BOTH WERE ENDED at 70 AD. When all things (the judgment, the enemies, the resurrection, the kingdom, the death, the covenants, and the Law) that were subjected to him, he delivered up to his God (Yahweh) the Father which He may be all in all. (Cite)

• Hyper Preterist Link?  Anarcho-Pantelism Website Added - "Anarcho-Pantelism is a lifestyle term used to describe someone who is a full-preterist Christian who also believes that anarcho-capitalism is the best political thought for humanity. Anarcho-pantelists differ from most Western Christians as we believe the Bible offers incredible insight into how to live, why to live that way, and what is offered if you subscribe to the anarcho-pantelist lifestyle. Anarcho-pantelists believe that most Christians are living ignorant of the New Age of God. We don’t believe others are wrong or are liars or are penalized for their lifestyle decisions, but we do believe there is a better way to live — one that is more Biblically sound... We believe that most of the Bible is closed off as a guide to living — it merely lists the actions of God and man over millenia."

• "As Preterists, we.." "I am just asking why, as Preterists, we are applying that scripture to us now? "

• "We, as Preterists" - If we as preterists say the last day has happened, then logically THE Resurrection has happened – whatever it was."

JUST "HYPER PRETERISM" -- JUST "ANOTHER OPTION" -- OR JUST PLAIN BIBLE ?


As the End of the Old Covenant Age is so too is the Start of the New Covenant Age = INCOMPLETE UNTIL AD70

1. Jesus' Return in Glory - Was in it in AD70, AD66, or BOTH?
   
   A. Jesus' Return in Glory Was in it in AD70
   
   William Bell -  "What was true of Noah's day was also true regarding the coming of Christ in A.D.70 at the fall of Jerusalem." (A Boat Divided)
   
   "Jesus sounded pretty sure of himself regarding the time. He knew surely that he was coming quickly and that the time was at hand. Now that is just as it was in the days of Noah, general revelation initially, but precise information near the end! As can be observed, the New Testament gives many signs and time statements most of which occur during the final twelve years leading up to A.D.70, depicting the soon approaching parousia." (A Boat Divided)
   
   David Curtis "That which is perfect refers to the maturity of the body at the rapture of the church, which happened at the second coming of Christ, bringing in the New Heavens and New Earth which closed the cannon. This all took place in AD 70, when the Lord returned, bringing in the New Heaven and Earth where we see Him face to face. So the coming again of our Lord for his people brought them to full maturity. " (The Permanence of Love)
   
   "Jesus very clearly tells his disciples that before the temple would be destroyed and before His parousia and the end of the age, the gospel must be preached in all the world. And it was! The temple was destroyed! He arrived in full glory! The Old Covenant age ended! " (The Permanence of Love)
   
   Walt Hibbard - "The Second Coming of Christ, the Resurrection of the Dead from out of Hades, the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb – all would take place literally and coinciding with the Roman army's march, immediately after the tribulation of those days. For then “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. When we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (I Thess. 4:16-17). This was a literal “catching up” of all true believers on earth at that time." (The Expectation and Logic of a Literal Catching Up)
   
   Don Preston - "We are convinced the only construct of Mark 8:38-9:1 and parallels which satisfies the chronological and contextual demands is to understand Jesus predicting his return in full glory to judge all men... This happened in 70 A.D. when he destroyed Jerusalem"  (An Airtight Argument)
   
   Ed Stevens - "Since that generation passed, those events (including His return) must already have happened. Therefore, the passage about not knowing the day or hour no longer applies to us, because the return is a past event. We now know (historically) the day and hour of His return (70 A.D.). We no longer need signs to tell when it is getting close. It is a past event." (That Day and Hour?)
   
   B. Jesus' Return in Glory Was in AD66
   
   Ed Stevens - "The saints were being persecuted. Christ would come and give them relief (AD 66), and at the same time give tribulation to their persecutors. We are talking about two different phases of the tribulation, with Christ’s return in the middle (the first against the saints in AD 62 - 66, and the second against their persecutors in AD 66-70). 
   
   "If the angelic armies literally seen in the clouds at AD 66 were the fulfillment of ‘every eye shall see Him’ (Rev. 1:7) as Sproul has allowed as a possibility, then it was also the fulfillment of Acts 1:11!" (Foreword to the new edition of James Stuart Russell’s The Parousia Bradford, PA: International, p. xii)
   
   So which is it, AD66 or AD70 !?  Can't be both.  Or is there a THIRD COMING (One in 66 and one in 70)  ?
   
    

2. When Did the Old Covenant End ?  AD30, AD70, or Both ?

   A. The End of the Old Covenant Age ("This Age") was in AD70
   
   Don Preston - "Paul's statement that the bondwoman and her son, representative of the Old Covenant, was yet to be cast out — for persecuting Christians — is prima fascia proof that the Old Testament did not pass at the cross as is traditionally maintained by many. Paul emphatically says the Old Covenant people would be cast out for persecuting Christians, the children of promise (Galatians 4:28-30).  This persecution patently did not occur prior to the cross. Thus, Israel could not have been cut off at the cross." (The Passing of the Elements)
   
   "This New World was consummated when God destroyed his old people, Isaiah 65:13ff, the Old Jerusalem; the Old Heavens and Earth of Judaism, Isaiah 51:15-16; bringing to a close the Old World (Age, Matthew 24:3) and bringing to glorious perfection, 1 Cor. 13:8, the New World. That time was when Jesus returned and destroyed the capital and hub of the Old World, Jerusalem, in A.D. 70." (More On No Death, No Sorrow, No Pain)
   
   Michael Sartori - "I would contend that the O/C passed away in AD70 and the N/C commenced in AD70, at the destruction of Jerusalem. " (Magi Forum -http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)
   
    

3. When Did the New Covenant "Age to Come" Start ?   AD30, AD70, or Both ?
   
   A. The Start of the New Covenant Age ("The Age to Come") was in AD70
   
   William Bell - "We all know when it fell, in A.D.70! Entrance into the Most Holy is a blessing of the "age to come." Entrance was opened up at the fall of the temple. Therefore, the blessings of the "age to come" were opened up or received at the fall of the temple, specifically ETERNAL LIFE!" (This Present Evil Age)
   
   "How confusing it would have been for Jesus to direct the apostles to the end of the Christian age which is endless and had not yet begun when the very age in which they were living had not reached its consummation!." (When Did Miracles Cease)
   
   "Namely, that when Jesus answered their objection to the resurrection on the grounds that it did not consist in the fleshly dimension of the Jewish aeon (this age) but in the eternal new covenant aeon (age to come) wherein sonship in Christ is equated with resurrection." (The Dead Are Raised)
   
   Michael Hill - "Christ's eschaton.. began at the cross and ended in his parousia (presence/coming) at Jerusalem at the end of the 7-year war with Rome.. Thus, true to Jesus' words, that old world ended, the dead were judged, the saved were resurrected, and a whole new realm of grace began" (The Cure for Millennial Madness, p. 3).
   
   New Earth Christian Studies - "The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New." (God's Promises Fulfilled)
   
   Don Preston - "This New World was consummated when God destroyed his old people, Isaiah 65:13ff, the Old Jerusalem; the Old Heavens and Earth of Judaism, Isaiah 51:15-16; bringing to a close the Old World (Age, Matthew 24:3) and bringing to glorious perfection, 1 Cor. 13:8, the New World. That time was when Jesus returned and destroyed the capital and hub of the Old World, Jerusalem, in A.D. 70." (More On No Death, No Sorrow, No Pain)
   
   "I believe the only scenario that satisfies the teaching of the Old and New Covenants concerning the Dawning of the New Day is when Christ returned in judgment, destroying the Old World of Darkness and Death, II Corinthians 3. This patently was not on Pentecost; the New Testament writers, writing after Pentecost saw the Day as still future, but imminent, I Peter 4:5,7; James 5:7-9. The New Day fully came in 70 AD when Jesus returned in judgment of the Old World of Darkness and brought the New Day of Salvation. The Day has come." (The Day Has Come)
   
   Michael Sartori - "I would contend that the O/C passed away in AD70 and the N/C commenced in AD70, at the destruction of Jerusalem. " (Magi Forum -http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)
   
   Ed Stevens - "That 40-year period between Pentecost and Holocaust was just a transition phase between “this age” and “the age about to come.” It is “the age about to come” that was to be the eternal one. We have several examples of 40-year transitional periods in the OT (wilderness wandering, David’s reign, etc.). According to Moses and the prophets the transition between the two ages was not supposed to be eternal, nor even a long protracted period." (Stevens Responds to Gentry)
   
   "At AD70, Jesus returned and ended the last days of the Jewish nation.  It was God's Great and Glorious Day for the vindication of His people, and an awesome day of judgment and destruction for those who had rejected and crucified Jesus.. The last days of the Jewish nation ended then.  A new age had begun." (What Happened in AD70?, p. 29)
   
   
   B. The New Covenant Age ("The Age to Come") was initiated in AD30, but not completed Until AD70
   
   William Bell - "The "present time" denotes a "then present" period of transition from the Old to the New Covenant. This did not occur instantaneously at Pentecost (A.D.33) but gradually within the framework of the Cross - A.D.70 time frame" (Illusion of Conclusion)
   
   New Earth Christian Studies - "If they were looking forward to something, waiting eagerly for it, then they did not yet possess it in its fullness. And yet, there was always a sense in which they already owned it. They had the down payment. It was not that the New Covenant had not yet begun: It had, but it was not in full effect, until the Old Covenant was utterly destroyed." (God's Promises Fulfilled) 
   
   Don Preston "We thus have the passing of one world and the anticipation of another. The Old World is the Old Covenant World of Israel that anticipated and predicted the coming of the Messiah — these predictions were part of the elements, the first principles of Christ. The New World, the World to come, was initiated by the passion of Jesus and his work of atonement. The perfection of that atoning work would be his parousia (Hebrews 9:28)." (The Passing of the Elements)
   
   "If they were looking forward to something, waiting eagerly for it, then they did not yet possess it in its fullness. And yet, there was always a sense in which they already owned it. They had the down payment. It was not that the New Covenant had not yet begun: It had, but it was not in full effect, until the Old Covenant was utterly destroyed.  The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New." (God's Promises Fulfilled)  - So which is it, AD30 or AD70 !?  Can't be both.  Or is there a THIRD AGE ("This Age to Come")? 
   
   
   D. The END of the New Covenant Age ("The Age to Come") was in AD70
   
   "I don't think the old covenant ceased at the cross of Christ. It was done at the destruction of Jerusalem. After the cross, its began to fade away as we've seen in the book of Hebrews. The new covenant began on the Day of Pentecost which the saints were filled with the holy spirit and Christ was their King. Now, this may be an interesting part, the judgment began at 66 AD when the saints were "raised" and "received" the thrones of kingdom with the parousia of Christ at that time, not 70 AD yet. See Rev. 11:15-19; Matt. 19:28; and Luke 22:30. The old covenant and the new covenant were overlaping during 30-70 AD. It seems that BOTH WERE ENDED at 70 AD. When all things (the judgment, the enemies, the resurrection, the kingdom, the death, the covenants, and the Law) that were subjected to him, he delivered up to his God (Yahweh) the Father which He may be all in all. (Cite)
   
    

4. When Was the Church Established ?  AD30, AD70, or Both ?
   
   A. Preston: The Church Was Not Established at Pentecost
   
   Don Preston "A key point of controversy surrounding the Preterist view of eschatology is the contention that the church/kingdom was not fully established on Pentecost but was in a state of incompletion until the Old World was taken out of the way in A.D.70. Every anti-Preterist which this writer has read or heard has made a major issue over this point. It would seem that this issue is one which our opponents believe is dangerous, and evidently they believe it easy to refute. As we shall seek to demonstrate, however, it is not the Preterist that has a problem with this issue, it is the one who holds to the traditional concept of eschatology; and especially in regard to the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit. (A Full Grown Baby?)
   
   B. Preston: The Church Was Established at Pentecost
   
   Don Preston "We are not here arguing that the kingdom was not established on Pentecost. We do aver it was established in infancy." (An Airtight Argument)
   
    

5. When Was the Resurrection?  Was it in AD30, Was it in AD70, or Both?
   
   A. AD30: The Resurrection Began in AD30 and Ended in AD70
   
   William Bell - "It is transparent that Paul has pointed the direction of the Philippians upward, eagerly looking for the Savior who would complete the resurrection already in progress, v.11. ." (Phil. 4:5 Spatiology or Eschatology?)
   
   B. AD70: The Resurrection Was Solely in AD70
   
   Max R. King - "This captivity was symbolic of the captive state of the New Testament saints during the last days of fleshly Israel. They were oppressed and persecuted until the very end of that second Babylon (I Thess. 2:14-16). The fall of Babylon (Israel) and the resurrection of the saints to their homeland, the new heaven and earth, are the basic theme of God's final revelation to man. As with national Israel in ancient Babylon, the release or deliverance of the saints from Israel (Babylon) was the opening of the graves and the bringing forth of all into judgment," (The Spirit of Prophecy, p. 219).
   
   C. AD30 and 70: The Resurrection Was in Progress, But Wasn't Attained Until AD70
   
   William Bell - "In chapter 3, Paul speaks of attaining to the resurrection of the dead, v.11, which equates with being made perfect (telios), and obtaining the prize of the high calling, (Phil.3:12,14; Eph.4:13).  Finally, after another reference to the destruction of Jewish adversaries, whose hope was in their fleshly status and circumcision, (3:1-6); whose righteousness was derived from the works of the law, (v.9); and whose mind was on the earthly things or commonwealth of Jerusalem, its temple and sacrifices, etc., (v.19), Paul looks up with his affections set on the heavenly things above (Col.3:1,2), and declares, "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself" (Phil.3:20,21).  It is transparent that Paul has pointed the direction of the Philippians upward, eagerly looking for the Savior who would complete the resurrection already in progress, v.11. ." (Phil. 4:5 Spatiology or Eschatology?)
    

6. When is the Bodily Resurrection?  AD70 or in the future, after Death?  Or Two Different Resurrections of the Just?
   
   A. The Resurrection is in the Future, After Physical Death (Wouldn't This by HYPO-Preterism??)
   
   Jessie Mills - "Since Christ has already returned, believers now receive their new bodies immediately at death." (Revelation Survey, p. 168)
   
   B. The Resurrection was in AD70
   
   Jessie Mills - "The dead in Hades (sheol) were indeed disembodied  while waiting for Christ's return.  At Christ's return, the dead in the unseen realm of Hades were raised out of Hades and given their new immortal bodies that had been reserved for them." (Revelation Survey, p. 168)
    

7. When the Gospel Start / Cease?
   
   A. Paul's Gospel Didn't Apply to the Pre-AD70 World
   
   William Bell - "If Demas forsook Paul for the present age (alleged Christian age) then in what age did that leave Paul? Not the Jewish age if it passed away at the cross. Not the "age to come," since it is argued to be yet future.  Can we attribute the present age to which Demas apostatized as the age which Christ came to establish? Does not this passage show clearly that the gospel which Paul held firmly till his death (2 Timothy 4:6-8) did not belong to the "present age" of scripture? What a bind we all are in today if loving the Christian age is apostasy." (This Present Evil Age)
   
   B. Paul's Gospel Applied ONLY to the Pre-AD70 World
   
    

8. When Was The Judgment Of "All Men" ?
   
   A. The Judgment of "All Men" was in AD70
   
   William Bell - "Having died in faith, they were yet (about A.D. 64) awaiting the promise of resurrection into the eternal kingdom, (Heb.11:39-40). Although the time was then future, it was not in the far distant future for the city for which they looked was about to come, (Heb.13:14), and was said to be at hand, (Rev.1:1,3; 21:2)." (The Dead Are Raised) 
   
   "Similarly, the resurrection of saints from hades and the change of the "living" as far as we know, was not perceivable to the physical eye. The limits of physical observation do not deny, disprove, or otherwise negate the clear teachings of scripture that the resurrection occurred in 70 A.D., in connection with the fall of Jerusalem " (Challenging Concepts of the Resurrection)
   
   "The time of this judgment equals the time that the patriarchs as well as the saints from the east, west, north and south sit down or inherit the kingdom and corresponds with their resurrection.    Jesus speaks of the gathering of the elect from the four winds during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D." (Illusion of Conclusion)

   David Curtis -" The destruction of Jerusalem evidenced Jesus' coming in the clouds for that historical group of people. But are we to see it only as a coming in judgement on Israel? The full preterist or consistent preterist sees this judgement coming on Israel as the second advent of Christ. Jesus said that he would come in the lifetime of his disciples not just to judge Israel but: he said he would come in the glory of His father, with His angels, to reward every man.    At Christ's coming he was to judge the wicked and reward the righteous, and it was to happen quickly. In the parable of the tares in Matthew 13 we see that the judgement of the wicked and the reward of the righteous happen at the same time." (The Book of Revelation)
   
   Stephen Douglas - "At the time of the emptying of Sheol as a result of the judgment in AD 70, the living and the those who had died before that time were judged based on their faithfulness to God." (undeception.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/common-objections-to-full-preterism-below-the-surface/#comments)
   
   Max R. King - "This captivity was symbolic of the captive state of the New Testament saints during the last days of fleshly Israel. They were oppressed and persecuted until the very end of that second Babylon (I Thess. 2:14-16). The fall of Babylon (Israel) and the resurrection of the saints to their homeland, the new heaven and earth, are the basic theme of God's final revelation to man. As with national Israel in ancient Babylon, the release or deliverance of the saints from Israel (Babylon) was the opening of the graves and the bringing forth of all into judgment," (The Spirit of Prophecy, p. 219).
   
   Don Preston - "We are convinced the only construct of Mark 8:38-9:1 and parallels which satisfies the chronological and contextual demands is to understand Jesus predicting his return in full glory to judge all men... This happened in 70 A.D. when he destroyed Jerusalem"  (An Airtight Argument)
   
   
   B. The Judgment of "All Men" was a Process Completed in AD70
   
   William Bell - "It is transparent that Paul has pointed the direction of the Philippians upward, eagerly looking for the Savior who would complete the resurrection already in progress, v.11.  Clearly, the expectation of the Parousia is in full focus." (Philippians 4:5 - Spatiology or Eschatology)
   
    

9. Who Was Judged ("All Men") in AD70 ?
   
   A. The Living and the Dead Before That Time
   
   William Bell - "In addition, it is not without significance that this gathering of the saints in Matt.24:31, is preceded by the great sound or voice (marginal rendering) of a trumpet. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob heard "this" trumpet. It therefore signaled the universal gathering of saints from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven, (Mk.13:27; 2 Thess.2:1; Heb.10:25), as well as the raising of the patriarchs and prophets from the dead, (Rom.4:16; Heb.11:39-40). This can be none other than the trump of God of 1 Thess.4:16, and the last trump of 1 Cor.15:52. If not, then do the scriptures teach two separate gatherings preceded by two universal trumpets? Why make them all the more confusing (a fact evidenced by the attempt to divide Matthew 24), by placing them both at a coming of Christ, a consummation of an age, a gathering together of the elect in the clouds, and an inheriting of the kingdom, (Matt.8:11-12, 24:3, 30-31, 34; 1 Cor.15:23-24, 50-52; 1 Thess.4:14-17)? It should be readily apparent that the trumpet is one and the same. Equally certain is the fact that Matthew 24 places the sounding of that trumpet at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, before that first-century generation passed, (Matt.24:31,34). " (The Dead Are Raised)
   
   Stephen Douglas - "At the time of the emptying of Sheol as a result of the judgment in AD 70, the living and the those who had died before that time were judged based on their faithfulness to God." (undeception.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/common-objections-to-full-preterism-below-the-surface/#comments)
   
   B. Fleshly Israel"
   
   William Bell - "The parable of the tares likewise expressed the difficulty of determining the tares (fleshly Israel) from the wheat (spiritual Israel or sons of God), during the pre-end-of-the-age transition which was consummated in A.D.70, (Mt.13:29,30; 37-40)."  (Illusion of Conclusion)
   
    

10. When Did Supernatural Power of Evil Cease ?  Was it in AD30, Was it in AD70, or Both?
    
    A. Supernatural Powers of Evil Ceased in AD70
    
    William Bell - "It also explains the cessation of demon possession and the supernatural powers of evil spirits which were independent of apostles' hands or disciples' vital signs. The cessation of prophecy and demon possession was linked to the fulfillment of old testament prophecy." (When Did Miracles Cease)
    
    David Curtis - "Their father was the devil, the god of the Jewish age. Satan held them in bondage through the law. They were the physical seed of Abraham but not the true seed of Abraham." (Israel of God)
    
    Jessie Mills - "Satan has already been given his kingdom in the lake of fire, and he no longer walks up and down, to and fro, seeking whom he may devour.  His powers are curtailed.. Christ is now ruler of the this world." (Revelation Survey, p. 256) 
    
    "Nero declared war on Israel Feb 10 AD67. After the judgment of Rev. 20:4 Satan was loosed for a short period and when he accomplished God's will he was cast into the lake of fire.  So at the most 4 months would fulfil those events in the this time frame.  See Luke 21:20-22." (Revelation Survey, p. 163) 
    
    Don Preston - "But Jesus comes in judgment on that apostate city and destroys her. In chapter 20 judgment is set, Satan is cast into the lake of fire; and Jesus takes his glorious bride unto himself! This all happened in 70 AD with the full destruction of the Theocracy of Israel, the persecuting city of Jerusalem, the Old Heavens and Earth. The New Creation is complete--what Satan had succeeded in getting man to forfeit, communion with God and eternal life, is restored. Satan lost — God finished His work." (The Binding of Satan)
    
    B. Supernatural Powers of Evil Ceased in AD30
    
    Dan Harden -“Yes the effect of human sin is sufficient to account for all of the horrible expressions of wickedness that we see in our world today. We find little excuse to blame Satan for the evil about us. Christ has tied up the strong one and plundered his house”  
    
     

11. The Seventieth Week of Daniel - AD30s or AD70s ?
    
    A. The Seventieth Week was in the AD30s.
     
    Jessie Mills - "Therefore we see the balance of the last 'week' beginning when the Holy Spirit is poured out upon the twelve (Pentecost), and the teaching of Christ goes forth." (Daniel's Fulfilled Prophecy, p. 149)
    
     

12. The Christianity of the Bible Not the Christianity of Post AD70 World
    
    William Bell - "The confirmation or proof of the apostles' inspiration and miraculous power was their very ability to confer or impart miraculous gifts to believers through the laying on of their hands, (Acts 6:5,6; 8:17,18; 19:6; II Tim. 1:6). It is important, however, that one take into consideration the time frame of what is taught in Mk. 16:17-18."
    
    The Lord was "with" the apostles in the "miraculous" confirmation of the word. Matthew's account of the great commission affirms the same. "Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age, (Mt. 28:20, NASV). Is one to suppose that the Lord miraculously confirmed the apostles' preaching but not their teaching? Was he not "with" them in their teaching in the same way? Here, then, is the Lord promising to guide the apostles in inspiration and to confirm their words through imparting signs through them until the END OF THE AGE!  This is the Jewish age which lasted until 70 A.D." (When Did Miracles Cease?)
    
    "Paul states that the gift of inspiration to apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers would continue till "we all come to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (full-grown) man, (Eph. 4:11-14). It has been demonstrated that the full-grown man (perfect) state is equivalent in meaning and time to "when that which is perfect is come," and the "face to face" presence of Christ, (1 Cor. 13:8-12; Rev. 22:4). Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. Therefore the "unity of the faith" equals to the "face to face" presence in the revelation of Jesus Christ at the end of the Jewish age.

    Dan Harden - “The Great Commission was a special time of inspired Apostolic activity that will never be repeated”  
    
    New Earth Christian Studies - "It was not that the New Covenant had not yet begun: It had, but it was not in full effect, until the Old Covenant was utterly destroyed. They were free of it's burden of slavery, but until the first tabernacle was removed, the way into the Holy Place and complete access to God was not disclosed. The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New." (God's Promises Fulfilled)
    
    Michael Sartori "Is the church (in it's current traditional format) really how it is supposed to be? As a Full Preterist I tend to believe the church set up / government as established in the N/T was for a transitional period, from AD 30 to AD70." (Magi Forum - http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html) 
    
    "Miracles were still in use to confirm Jesus' teaching and authority and the Old Covenant had not yet passed away (Hebrews 8:13). The church still needed pastors, elders, shepherds etc. to enable the transition to run smoothly. "  (Magi Forum -http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)
    
    Ed Stevens - "That 40-year period between Pentecost and Holocaust was just a transition phase between “this age” and “the age about to come.” It is “the age about to come” that was to be the eternal one. We have several examples of 40-year transitional periods in the OT (wilderness wandering, David’s reign, etc.). According to Moses and the prophets the transition between the two ages was not supposed to be eternal, nor even a long protracted period." (Stevens Responds to Gentry)
    
     

13. The Cross Incomplete for Salvation / Eternal Life - AD70 Mandatory
    
    William Bell - "Entrance into the Most Holy is a blessing of the "age to come." Entrance was opened up at the fall of the temple. Therefore, the blessings of the "age to come" were opened up or received at the fall of the temple, specifically ETERNAL LIFE! When exegetes quit dividing Matthew and begin "rightly dividing" the word on biblical eschatology, eternal life will be seen in Matthew where it is seen in Hebrews, in A.D.70, at the fall of the temple and Jewish commonwealth. In fact, this is where it will be seen throughout all the holy scriptures." (This Present Evil Age)
    
    "If that redemption were "completed" at the cross or on the day of Pentecost, then miraculous gifts were a useless commodity to the church as it relates to the same. Further proof that the redemption was not complete was the "futurity" of the inheritance which would be received at the second coming.. The completion of that redemption was clearly future at the time of the writing of Ephesians, about A.D. 58, though not removed from that first-century generation.. Therefore, the redemption of the purchased possession was completed in A.D. 70, at the fall of Jerusalem which corresponds in time to the end of the Jewish age and coming or parousia of Christ. This was the "day of redemption" and the termination of the "earnest" or miraculous gifts." (When Did Miracles Cease)  
    
    "When was that redemption completed? This is vital to an understanding of when those gifts would cease. Paul writes, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption, (Eph. 4:30)." (When Did Miracles Cease)  
    
    Don Preston "The process (and ground) of taking away of sin undoubtedly began at the Cross, as Hebrews 9:26 affirms. It was not perfected and completed there, however." (eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=477&Itemid=61)
    
    "The New Day fully came in 70 AD when Jesus returned in judgment of the Old World of Darkness and brought the New Day of Salvation. The Day has come." (The Day Has Come)
    
     

14. Death Was Swallowed Up in AD70
    
    Virgil Vaduva - "That is why in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul can happily say "Where, O death is your victory?  Where, O death is your sting?"  He is not talking about physical death but spiritual death because he specifies sin and Jesus' victory over spiritual death in the very next verse: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.  But thanks be to God!  He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.  Jesus conquered death and reunited us with God." (Answer to Gromacki)
     

15. "The Law" and the "Power of Sin" Was Utterly Removed in AD70
    
    Don Preston - "I find it impossible to escape the conclusion that either the Great Trumpet of the Lord sounded in that first century generation or Jesus' promise failed and man still has no escape from sin, from separation from God. The Good News is, the Trumpet sounded and the final barriers between God and man were removed as God took away the last vestiges of "the law" which held the "power of sin." Man can now be fully justified and live in full assurance that "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24). Thank God for the sounding of the Great Trumpet!" (With The Sounding of the Trumpet)
    
    Kurt Simmons - The Attack on Full Preterism: Which Death Was Defeated in AD70? - "Covenant Eschatology: Inherently Universalistic" The evidence is in: full Preterism is not the culprit linking Preterism to Universalism. The real culprits are false notions regarding the source and nature of mankind’s condemnation and his corporate justification as articulated by some in the Preterist community. Reformed Preterists, like Frost, interpret the “death” cast into the lake of fire in Rev. 20:14 as imputed Adamic guilt. King, on the other hand, equates it with annulment of the Mosaic law. Because these are universal in terms of their asserted condemnation, their destruction works universal justification, apart from faith and obedience. As they unconditionally condemned, so their annulment unconditionally justifies. It is as if the whole race were arraigned before the court of heaven upon an indictment reciting these two laws. The annulment of those laws ipso facto destroys the indictment, as there is no longer any law to base an accusation upon. Hence, all men stand acquitted. In the words of Sam Frost: “There is no law taking into account our sins.”
     

16. The Creation Which Was Groaning Was Old Covenant Israel
    
    William Bell - "We submit then, that the "creation" of Romans 8:18-23, is a reference to O.T. saints who, under the law, were in the bondage of corruption of sin-death, yet waiting/groaning in pain to be delivered from that bondage when the firstfruits (N.T. saints) were manifested or received the adoption of sons. It is not necessary to exclude Gentiles from the "whole creation" of Romans 8. (See The Cross And The Parousia Of Christ, by Max R. King, pp. 525-526). The time of fulfillment is the completion of the work of the eschatological Spirit at the end of the Jewish age in A.D. 70.. Finally, the identity of the creation harmonizes with Old Covenant Israel as rational, intelligent mankind who were in need of deliverance - real deliverance from the bondage of real sin-death, and this through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ." (The Illusion of the Conclusion)
     

17. Old Covenant Israel Was Delivered From the Bondage of Sin-Death in AD70
    
    William Bell - "Old Covenant Israel must be introduced into the equation as consideration of the creation in Romans 8. There was a real need to deliver them from the bondage of sin-death. Christ took on the nature of his brethren (Old Covenant Israel) that he might suffer sin-death with them in order to destroy the power of Satan and subsequently deliver his brethren from that bondage.. There was, therefore, a real need for Christ to deliver his brethren (O.T. Israel) from the power of sin death, a bondage to which they had become subject, "not willingly," i.e., not of their own choice but by God's placing them under the law which could not give the life (Gal.3:21), and the freedom from sin and death (Heb.10:4), which they desired. This could only be accomplished through Christ by means of his death and the outpouring of the eschatological Spirit during his age-ending reign, (1 Cor.15:24-26). .. There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB; FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR (O.T. ISRAEL'S) SINS," (Rom.11:26,27; 13:11,12)." (The Illusion of the Conclusion)
     

18. The New Heavens and Earth Entered the World in AD70
    
    David Curtis - "We dwell in the New Jerusalem in the very presence of God and the invitation is still going out today. Notice the invitation that goes forth from the New Heaven and Earth" (Gospel Preached to All the World?)
    
    Jessie Mills - "By destroying the Jewish State and sending the gospel of Christ throughout the Gentile world, He 'will reign for ever and ever'.  Time without end.  Yet some today are teaching that the end of the world is just ahead.   They say it will soon burn to ashes, thus destroying the kingdom where Christ was to reign 'for ever and ever'." (Revelation Survey, p. 157)
     

19. The Consummation of the Ages Was in AD70
    
    William Bell - "Jesus spoke of the consummation of an age concurrent with Jerusalem's fall in A.D.70.." (This Present Evil Age)
     

20. AD70 Was The Goal of the New Testament
    
    William Bell - "The goal of New Covenant saints was the revealing of sons which equals receiving the adoption of sons/redemption of the body. This is placed opposite to deliverance from the bondage/slavery of corruption, a state from which New covenant saints were already being delivered though it had not yet reached consummation as Paul argues. " (The Illusion of the Conclusion)
     

21.  The "Unity of the Faith" Came in AD70
    
    William Bell - "Fifth, Paul states that the gift of inspiration to apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers would continue till "we all come to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (full-grown) man, (Eph. 4:11-14). It has been demonstrated that the full-grown man (perfect) state is equivalent in meaning and time to "when that which is perfect is come," and the "face to face" presence of Christ, (1 Cor. 13:8-12; Rev. 22:4). Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. Therefore the "unity of the faith" equals to the "face to face" presence in the revelation of Jesus Christ at the end of the Jewish age. "  (When Did Miracles Cease)
     

22. Miracles Ceased in AD70
    
    William Bell - "Miracles were to last until the completion or end of the Jewish age.. Therefore, the scriptures limit the termination of miracles to the end of the Jewish age in 70 A.D.." (When Did Miracles Cease)
    
    "If that redemption were "completed" at the cross or on the day of Pentecost, then miraculous gifts were a useless commodity to the church as it relates to the same. Further proof that the redemption was not complete was the "futurity" of the inheritance which would be received at the second coming.. The completion of that redemption was clearly future at the time of the writing of Ephesians, about A.D. 58, though not removed from that first-century generation.. Therefore, the redemption of the purchased possession was completed in A.D. 70, at the fall of Jerusalem which corresponds in time to the end of the Jewish age and coming or parousia of Christ. This was the "day of redemption" and the termination of the "earnest" or miraculous gifts." (When Did Miracles Cease)  
    
    Michael Sartori - "Miracles were still in use to confirm Jesus' teaching and authority and the Old Covenant had not yet passed away (Hebrews 8:13). The church still needed pastors, elders, shepherds etc. to enable the transition to run smoothly. "  (Magi Forum -http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)
     

23. Spiritual Gifts Ceased in AD70
    
    David Curtis "When that time arrived in AD 70, there was no longer a need for spiritual gifts." (The Permanence of Love)
    
     

24. The Work of the Holy Spirit Ceased in AD70
    
    William Bell - "When was that redemption completed? This is vital to an understanding of when those gifts would cease. Paul writes, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption, (Eph. 4:30)." (When Did Miracles Cease)
    
    "Second, the bodies in this context were only those of Christians who were physically alive. Third, the indwelling of these bodies was by a "then present" (A.D.57) miraculous indwelling of the Spirit whose "completed" work was future but not removed from the age of the miraculous -- by His Spirit that indwells you." (Challenging Concept of the Resurrection)
     

25. Heaven Didn't Exist Until AD70
    
    Virgil Vaduva - "Since heaven would not exist until the return of Christ, all the dead in Christ would be required to go to Hades, not heaven." (Answer to Gromacki)
     

26. The Great Trumpet Sounded in AD70
    
    William Bell - " In addition, it is not without significance that this gathering of the saints in Matt.24:31, is preceded by the great sound or voice (marginal rendering) of a trumpet. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob heard "this" trumpet..  Equally certain is the fact that Matthew 24 places the sounding of that trumpet at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, before that first-century generation passed, (Matt.24:31,34)." (The Dead Are Raised)
    
    Don Preston - "I find it impossible to escape the conclusion that either the Great Trumpet of the Lord sounded in that first century generation or Jesus' promise failed and man still has no escape from sin, from separation from God.. Thank God for the sounding of the Great Trumpet!" (With The Sounding of the Trumpet)
    
     

27. Universal Acknowledgement of Christ's Sovereignty Came in AD70
    
    William Bell - "In chapter 2, reference again to judgment, v.10.  The reference does not appear as clear, but when paralleled with Rom.14:10 and Rev.5:13, that judgment and universal acknowledgment of Christ's sovereignty was at hand (Rev.1:1-3).  They were again exhorted in view of the day (Parousia) of Christ, (Phil.2:16)." (Philippians 4:5 - Spatiology or Eschatology)
    
     

28. The Gathering From the Four Winds Was During the Fall of Jerusalem
    
    William Bell - " Jesus speaks of the gathering of the elect from the four winds during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.. In addition, it is not without significance that this gathering of the saints in Matt.24:31, is preceded by the great sound or voice (marginal rendering) of a trumpet. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob heard "this" trumpet. It therefore signaled the universal gathering of saints from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven, (Mk.13:27; 2 Thess.2:1; Heb.10:25), as well as the raising of the patriarchs and prophets from the dead, (Rom.4:16; Heb.11:39-40).. Equally certain is the fact that Matthew 24 places the sounding of that trumpet at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, before that first-century generation passed, (Matt.24:31,34). " (The Dead Are Raised)
     

29. That Which is Perfect Came in AD70 at the Second Coming
    
    William Bell - "Therefore, seeing face to face which is equal to the coming of the perfect in the Corinthian text, is equal in time to "seeing His face" in the New Jerusalem at the second coming. It is the full open-faced, unmirorred revelation or unveiling of God's glory in Christ, a glory that was ready to be (about to be) revealed in the apostles' own generation.. Lastly, the end of the age, the revelation or day of Christ, the full-grown man, the coming of the perfect, seeing "face to face," the redemption of the purchased possession, receiving the inheritance, and the unity of the faith are all equivalents in time and meaning having occurred in 70 A.D. with the fall of Jerusalem" (When Did Miracles Cease)  
    
    David Curtis "That which is perfect refers to the maturity of the body at the rapture of the church, which happened at the second coming of Christ, bringing in the New Heavens and New Earth which closed the cannon. This all took place in AD 70, when the Lord returned, bringing in the New Heaven and Earth where we see Him face to face. So the coming again of our Lord for his people brought them to full maturity. " (The Permanence of Love)
     

30. Hades Was Destroyed in AD70
    
    William Bell - "Hades has been destroyed. " (The Dead Are Raised)
     

31. The World Entered the Eternal Age in AD70
    
    William Bell - "Many writers express this viewpoint largely because they see the "age to come" as heaven."
    
    Ed Stevens - "That 40-year period between Pentecost and Holocaust was just a transition phase between “this age” and “the age about to come.” It is “the age about to come” that was to be the eternal one. We have several examples of 40-year transitional periods in the OT (wilderness wandering, David’s reign, etc.). According to Moses and the prophets the transition between the two ages was not supposed to be eternal, nor even a long protracted period. Gentry has missed the significance of the transition period, and confused the passages about the transition period with those about the eternal kingdom." (Stevens Responds to Gentry)
    
    Don Preston - "This New World was consummated when God destroyed his old people, Isaiah 65:13ff, the Old Jerusalem; the Old Heavens and Earth of Judaism, Isaiah 51:15-16; bringing to a close the Old World (Age, Matthew 24:3) and bringing to glorious perfection, 1 Cor. 13:8, the New World. That time was when Jesus returned and destroyed the capital and hub of the Old World, Jerusalem, in A.D. 70." (More On No Death, No Sorrow, No Pain)
     

32. The "Kingdom Come" Part of the Lord's Prayer No Longer Proper
    
    William Bell - "For example, if one were to fail to consider the time statements and facts found in other passages, the kingdom could be taught as yet future. Jesus taught the disciples to pray, "Thy kingdom come" (Matt.6:10). At the time those words were spoken, the kingdom was clearly future and therefore the propriety of praying for its arrival. " (The Parousia and Acts 1:11)
     

33. The Great Commission Was Fulfilled in AD70
    
    Dan Harden - “The Great Commission was a special time of inspired Apostolic activity that will never be repeated”  
     

34. Faith, Hope and Desire Was Fulfilled in AD70
    
    David Curtis - “Our hope and desire has been realized in the second coming of Christ, the tabernacle of God is with men, He dwells with us. We live in the glories of the New Covenant age."   (Theme of Revelation)
    
     

Hyper Preterist Definitions By Full Preterists This list is in the process of containing every known comment by a full preterist on the subject of hyper preterism (or equivalent terms).   Those FPs who offer a definition, or characteristics, of hyper preterism will be given a star.  Those that deny there to be such a  thing - or belittle the investigation - will be given a whammy.  Hopefully, it can be agreed by everyone else that denying the existence of hyper preterism is worthy of correction.   To dismiss the term simply because one does not like the connotation is an elephant in the living room of full preterism, and the sense of denial inherent in this course is indicative of the overall problem with full preterism's theological irresponsibility :  "Full Preterism is also known by several other names: Consistent Preterism, Covenant Eschatology, Hyper-Preterism (a term used by some opponents of the Full Preterist position and considered to be derogatory by Full Preterists).." (Wikipedia Entry for "Preterism") Ward Fenley "Hyper-Preterism is the belief that all soteriological events were consummated and ended by AD70 and that none of the soteriological benefits of Christ's redemptive work apply post AD70. " Sam Frost ""This must mean that issues of "sin", "death" and "law", which some preterists have written off, are "not for today" (along with the Holy Spirit, faith, and preaching the gospel).  Here, it appears, Dennis is reacting to what we at Reign of Christ Ministries have always called hyper-preterism.  This includes those who see no need for baptism, the Lord's Table, or church officers." (http://thereignofchrist.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=244&Itemid=48) Dan Harden "I think there might be a case for overextending the basics of Preterism" Ed Stevens  "These folks would see the church as a temporary transitional phase of the Kingdom, with its phase-out in AD 70. These folks would also see baptism, the Lord’s Supper and other such physical expressions of our ongoing covenant relationship with God as being no longer valid in the post-70 Kingdom. This is certainly an extreme “hyper” preterist position, and very few have taken that route. ” Mike Sullivan: The “literal rapture view” & “no application of eternal life post AD 70 because "eternal life" was a new covenant blessing made to the 12 tribes of Israel and therefore can ONLY apply to them.  (Reformed Preterist Yahoo Group) | "Now, there are REAL "Hyper-Preterists" and they believe there is no salvation for anyone post AD 70 - and they as well are a minority (I have only met one in 17 years).  They follow the kind of thinking of Lloyd Dale that "gentiles" are the 10 northern tribes.  So after God "gathered" "all Israel," there is no salvation post AD 70 for real gentiles." (PretCosmos Yahoo Group) Lloyd Dale: "For the record here and anywhere/everywhere else -- While I do think that the first century "gentiles" coming to salvation included the descendants of the "ten tribes" it is completely FALSE to assert that I "believe that there is no salvation post AD 70 for 'real gentiles'"."   Dan Harden "It has become in fashion to add the prefix "hyper" to a view that one feels goes in an acceptable direction but goes too far. It is largely illusion. You are right, there is no such thing as "Hyper-Calvinism", and while I think there might be a case for overextending the basics of Preterism, I think it is rather hard to pinpoint. Anybody who sees some passages as Preterist but reject other passages as having relevant time indicators tends to resort to the over-used prefix "hyper".  (PretCosmos Yahoo Group)