Response to Regarding "Annihilationism"

By Gabor Gombor

More on the Man of Sin | Regarding "Annihilationism"

At first: I'm not an annihilationist but I don't think the phrase "eternal conscious punishment" comes from an exhausting exegesis. There are levels between eternal conscious punishment and Annihilationism.

Brother Scott cited Mt. 25.46 on the Covenant Eschatology board, where he has called my attention again to the word everlasting. Although the Concordance said it is eternal, notice the root of this word, Aionios (S166). Do not forget that for the word which we used frequently to proving "it is not the end of the world, it is the end of the age" on Mt. 24.3, translated by Strong also as "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity ". Preterists use the word "aion" as age, but disapprove this meaning on Aionios.  Please explain to me what is the reason for this?

The Greek itself is not meant to be used as "eternal". Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) said: "The period which includes the whole time of one's life is called the aeon of each one." Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). Aionos is used in Greek as "of or belonging to an age." Nobody say it is not important (to see how the Greek used it) since Peter used the word "Tartaros" which is is the prison of the Titans, or giants (cp. Heb. Rephaim, Ap. 25), who rebelled against Zeus. The problem is, the main meaning of aeon (which is age, time, period) is totally the opposite as eternity.

Aion in any form many times translated as "forever" but look this passage:

Tit. 1.12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway (aei) liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

Does it mean that the Cretians are liars forever?

Let us read another example where aionos does not mean eternal:

Rom. 16.25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began (AIONOS)

(NAS) 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past (AIONOS)

If aionos is eternal then the mystery, the gospel, is secret forever!

In same cases “forever” must be applied to the covenant or age:

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15); that is, until it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until--Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

I think the same is true with eternal life. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. A brother claimed that if I deny the everlasting nature for punishment, then I also deny everlasting nature for life. Notice this passage:

Luk. 18.29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world (aion) to come life everlasting.

According to the Preterist viewpoint the “age to come” is the period after AD 70. Believers in Christ receive “everlasting” life now. I don’t suggest here that after our death we will annihilated, simply I don’t know God’s plan. I believe that “he that soweth and he that reapeth “ will rejoice together, but I think nobody know what the afterlife really means.

A few translations on eternal punishment:

Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898

1. And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.
2. and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages.

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition (GreekEnglish Interlinear)

1. And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life.
2. And THAT ENEMY who deceived them was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE and Sulphur, where both the BEAST and FALSE-PROPHET [were cast,] and they will be tormented Day and Night for the AGES of the AGES.

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976

1. And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life.
2. And the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where were both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages.

Rotherham's Emphasized : "unto the ages of the ages.:

The second problem, the punishment, Kolasis does not means only punishment but correction as Strong listed:

2851: correction, punishment, penalty

Not all translations use here "punishment". It is obvious if the meaning "correction" is possible, the meaning eternal becomes impossible.

Or see the word "destruction":

2Th. 1.9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Everlasting destruction - you will find "Aionios Olethros". Strong says:

“olethros - for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed “ – Have you ever thought about 1Co 5.5:

1Co. 5.5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I don't want to prove annihilation but I'm simply not sure that punishment is eternal or that destruction is full destruction here. The point is not that conscious punishment exists at all but there can be punishments or torments (basanizo = touchstone) for an age. We have two ages described in our Bibles but who knows what is the real plans of God after our death? Even the Bible speak about more future ages:

Eph. 2.7 That in the ages (aionon) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

The only word to "eternal" in the NT is aidios referring to God (See Rom. 1.20) . You mention "unquenchable" which does not refer to "eternal" only. The fire on the Temple in AD 70 was unquenchable too but not eternal. (exactly as Josephus wrote)

The problem with Mt. 10:28 is valid although I think Gehenna as both a physical place and a spiritual continuation of punishment seems not too convincing. Why did Jesus use an everyday word to describe as place of the eternal punishment which meaning was never used among Jews? Neither the Old Testament, nor Josephus, nor Philo used "gehenna" as future spiritual judgments of Jews. Second problem that the verse does not say God will kill the souls, "He is able", as He is able to "of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." Not to mention, soul (psuche) does not means always the human soul but life (1Jn. 3.16, Heb. 10.39), heart (Col. 3.23) or mind (Heb. 12.3,Phi. 1.27). The text uses two Greek words "kill" and "destroy" which can refer to simply "Fear God and not man". A good example on psuche comparing to the meaning of Mt. 10:28:

Act. 14.2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.

But again I have no problems with punishment itself, only the word "everlasting". Despite this, you can be right with eternal - just I'm not sure to declare it as biblical truth.

Regarding Lazarus and the rich I think it is parable, Ed Burley wrote same arguments. See Lazarus (Eleazer) as the believers, the rich man as Jewish (royal) priesthood (notice: fine linen, six brothers), dogs as gentiles (Mk. 7.27) and the great gulf as blindness (Mk. 8.18, 2Co 3.15, Mt. 23.39), Abraham as their Father (Jn. 8.39, Jn. 8.56) - is a perfect Preterist verse and not a literal story. Second problem with this parable as literal story that in this case we must accept a “two-leveled” Hades with conscious punishment which is in contradiction with old-testamental description of Hades:

(Also notice that the “everlasting” in Dan. 12.2 – hebrew owlam means not only everlasting but long duration, indefinite also). Too many questions. How thought the rich man that he can escape from Hades to warn his brothers? It is impossible. I don’t want detail the curiosities (finger in water, tongue, seeing another “coast”, etc) but perhaps it would be good to analyze them better. The phrase “Moses and prophets” clearly signs a pre AD 70 event. After AD 70 it would be “let them hear to Christ”. Hades is entirely destroyed, were cast into the Lake of Fire. I think nobody believe that Hades still functions in Lake of Fire or simply renamed. If the parable is correct I don’t understand why it is impossible to see as AD 70 fulfillment when lot of priests killed but the believers escaped. The priests who remained alive, continue their lives which is not “life” without Christ:

Rev. 3.1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

What do YOU think ?

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Date:

21 Jan 2003

Time:

14:40:03

Comments

Thanks, dear Todd. (Thanks for the corrections too :-) ) - I hope Preterism will continue its great discoveries on another important topics of the Bible after clarifying "end times". Gabor

Date:

22 Jan 2003

Time:

10:34:21

Comments

See my article: Does Satan Exist Today? How can Satan be in the Lake of Fire and here on earth at the sametime? He can't. So this proves that Satan is not roaming the earth today. Someone that has been destroyed, judged, punished in 70AD, is NOT around today. Good articles on the subject of "Hell" are: The Bible Hell and What does the Bible say about Hell. Let the Bible speak for itself. Why do people try to hang on something that is no more is beyond me. RKM

Date:

23 Jan 2003

Time:

09:30:11

Comments

Comfort, Richard, comfort. It's called, complacency.

Date:

25 Jan 2003

Time:

06:28:40

Comments

Where is the border of using aion as age? 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever [aion]; Any comments welcome!

Date:

25 Jan 2003

Time:

06:37:50

Comments

An another "forever": Pantote (at all times, always, ever) in "the Rapture Passage".

Date:

02 Feb 2003

Time:

22:39:45

Comments

Date:

02 Feb 2003

Time:

22:44:45

Comments

I'm curious as to why no one has yet mentioned the fact that aionios/aionos (eternal, everlasting) is used not only to describe the punishment of the unrighteous after death but also the life of the righteous after physical death (Matt. 25:46). This verse clearly applies this term to both the punishment of the wicked and the bliss of the righteous. It would seem odd indeed for the word to have two different meanings in context when it appears twice in the same verse. If we are to limit the punishment of the wicked after death, are we not therefore also of necessity limiting the duration of the "life" inherited by the righteous?

Date:

10 Feb 2003

Time:

04:38:49

Comments

Very interesting reading Gabor, thanks. About the comment on Mt. 25:46 What does this verse have to do with physical death? The momment in question is clearly the Parousia of Christ and it is clear that not everyone on the face of the earth died at the moment of the Parousia. The point is covenantal concerning the results of the transformation of the ages. Christ is speaking in covenantal terms and covenantal results. The New Testament is full of this kind of speach. Blessings, Barry

Date:

03 Apr 2003

Time:

02:55:41

Comments

Personally its always seemed to me that God addresses only those in Covenant with him. By agreeing to the terms of His Covenant they are offered the oportunity of Life, even in the Old he asserts "my covenant (with Levi) was of life and peace". Adam's sin did not bring us the total depravity often asserted, rather I find it was when the Sons of God went into the daughters of men that God declared he would no longer strive with Man and thus declared all corrupt, yet even here His judgement was qualified at Gen.8:26 as stating the thoughts are evil from our youth up. The relevance of this is far reaching, as I for one have been amazed at how so many preachers insist we are born dead. Whereas it seems self-evident that if Jesus commands us to be as little children he surely implies that such are considered righteous. God declared through Moses that the Israelites who came out of Egypt would all perish, but there Children would enter the land because in the day their fathers sinned they were innocent "not knowing good and evil". Hence we pass from life to death when we go our own way, and again from death to life when we become partakers of the Resurrection in Christ. The consequences of our actions in Christ do have eternal implications, as Children of the covenant we are given eternal life; would any sugggest it is only age long, let them be reminded that the age of Christ will know no end. To this we have the clear statement of Paul that "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance". Thus while I find nothing in my reading of Scripture that suggests those who have never known God will suffer conscious punishment for ever, the warnings are clear that those who do and are not faithful will indeed suffer. Equally certain is that the New Covenant is with the Gentiles without distinction. What else does Peter warn of when he warns better to have not known Christ than to forsake him by being entangled in the world again. What the writer of Hebrews with his solemn warnings of "how much sorer punishment", if not that there is something worse after death to those who despise Christ knowingly. So while we may find support for an eternal death to those who have never known God, I don't think we can teach that such is true for those who know God through the new Covenant. This should be a sobering thought for those who deceive people into embracing a covenant without stressing those warnings of "counting the cost" that Jesus urged. While I'm aware his warnings were specific to the great spiritual battle that was to take place following his ascension and receiving of the kingdom from "the ancient of days" as in Daniel. Yet who could deny the truth that we wage a spiritual warfare now, requiring daily that we "bring our every thought captive to Christ" that we may "wash our robes clean in the blood of the lamb and may have the right to enter into the city and eat of the tree of life". These things are clearly conditional requiring the constant maintenance of our faith that we might serve, for it is only when we "walk in the spirit" that we don't fulfil "the lusts of the flesh". Whether this actually means those who fall away will suffer a conscious eternity of suffering is debatable, but clearly it requires we take our covenant obligations seriously, the first of which is faith working by love. Yet the character of God's love is displayed as both stern and merciful, and in his Anointed as stooping down to wash our feet that we might be completely clean, with the injuction that we do the same, for by this same humility of service do we effectually wash our robes in His precious blood. Thus if we would avoid the condemnation of Satan and his angels (messengers) we would do well to question does our knowledge bring us into that mind of Christ which is characterised by its humility, though he was a king, or does it puff us up and make us as Satan, but an accuser of our brethren. Against such is it not still true "shall he not avenge his elect that cry unto him night and day". To believe that God does not Judge and punish accordingly as the Just "Judge of all the earth" would be the leaven to have us all addressing those wrongs we suffer through our own means, rather than counting it joy to be found worhty to suffer with Christ who "answered his accusers not a word". Knowing that God would vindicate him and punish them. I must qualify my language with the words of Paul who insists the gospel is either the savour of life unto life or death unto death and ask are we unconscious when "dead in our sins and trespasses"? Clearly not, yet some continue to reject Christ because without belief they cannot come, but in their eternal death do not all those who reject him here have the continual knowledge of their error for the age of Christ which has no end? Isn't this why its an everlasting shame? Shame is something we feel and experience surely. Speaking personally when my brother died in a motorcycle crash, the thought that he was suffering for eternity was disturbing to say the least. Yet he hated Christ, he couldn't care a fig about Islam, about Bhuddism, Jainism, Hinduism or any other religious system, but he hated Christ and blasphemed him terribly. Is such hatred produced from ignorance or conscious denial of Christ's exclusive and true claim to be the only Saviour from our sins and their consequences? If we take the New Covenant seriously does not the word of God to Israel now include us all "I will punish the world for their evil ". Phil

Date:

11 May 2003

Time:

23:58:57

Comments

Hi again, Luke16:19-26 THE OPERATIONAL WORD IS FIXED PERMANENT! Beside all this (en pasi toutois). In all these things (or regions). Gulf (casma). An old word from cainw, to yawn, our chasm, a gaping opening. Only here in the N.T. Is fixed (esteriktai). Perfect passive indicative of sterizw, old verb (see on "Lu 9:51"). Permanent chasm. May not be able (mh dunwntai). Present middle subjunctive of dunamai. The chasm is there on purpose (that not, opws mh) to prevent communication. Maybe aion need not be our featured Word. Romans9.---I will shew mercy upon whom I will shew mercy

Date:

03 Mar 2004

Time:

02:24:00

Comments

It is my opinion that the punishment threatened whether everlasting or not was specific to those Jews who rejected the Messiah. This is the clear context of Daniel's prophecy, it is the express statement of Christ in Mat. 23; it is too easily overlooked that it was in that generation that ALL righteous blood shed upon the earth was to be judged. This it most certainly was. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that God has received His Israel and fulfilled the promises to Abraham, what is left is that life from the dead of which Paul speaks in Romans 11 and John at the end of Revelation states. That is that all who work righteousness (wash their robes in the blood of the lamb) will have the same right as their predecessors to enter into Christ's eternal spiritual kindom and thus eat of the tree of life and so live. This confirms and establishes God's promise to Abraham that through him all families of the earth would be blessed. Eternal conscious punishment is a nonsense in explicit opposition to gospel truth which declares we are all dead (in sins) and furthermore that God alone has immortality, but praise be to God he has given this same life to Christ who is able to give it to as many as he will, we are able to believe this because it is abundantly testified that 'He was declared to be the son of God with power by the Resurrection from the dead' and now 'has the power of an endless life'. We are all figuratively before Sinai and offered the choice of life or death, to choose life his to obey the voice of the Lord. The glory of the New Covenant is that all are able to receive of God's holy spirit and thus hear and obey His voice because in Christ we have an eternal mediator. Thus the Scriptures now fuction as precious relics, an abiding witness in the true Ark of the Covenant of God's mercy, but it is those words of Christ spoken after his wilderness temptation and repeated in various forms to refuse the possibility of an unmerciful rigidity, that are our abiding 'law' as it were and let it be noted in the 'Beatitudes' there is nothing of punishment everlasting. Assuredly Christ came not to condemn but to save.

Date:

26 Apr 2004

Time:

16:08:59

Comments

I am not a scholar, and I don't know Greek. But, most people would assume that everlasting punishment would happen in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15 - anyone not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire). However, in the preceding verse, "Death" and "Hades" were cast into the lake of fire. Obviously such impersonal things such as death and hades cannot be physically thrown into a lake of fire, nor do they have the capacity to feel anything - good or bad. As the Bible says our God is a consuming fire (Deut 4:24), it would make sense to me that He is the fire which consumes them. All life originates with Him, and the spirit returns to Him (Ecc 12:7). Good thoughts. RVB