Evil in the Revelation

By Gabor Gombor (bi-ga@freemail.hu)
   Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:28:49 -0400

This article is not for attacking full preterism (since I think I'm also a full preterist :-) ), rather my thoughts about the existence of the Satan and evil in the Revelation. Any explanations to my doubts are welcome.

The full preterists claim that the evil is not in direct relation with the Satan (who was only an agent of God, the source of evil is in our lusts and our heart) but evil will always exist on the Earth, they argued with Rev. 21.8, 21.27, 22.2 and 22.15. Briefly the Satan, the false prophet, the Death, the Hades was cast into the Lake of Fire, thereafter John had the vision about New Jerusalem, where it is continuously need to heal people and where the evil people are outside of the gates.

This is based on that the Rev. chapters 21 and 22 is after the chapter 20 in time. I think the situation is not that. I don't think the visions of John are always in perfect time line.

Rev. 21.8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers,and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Verse 8 refers back to the Lake of Fire and second death in chapter 20, since this description is affirmable in the time of chapter 20, not after it. This verse does not prove that evil people does exist after the Judgement.

Rev. 21.27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The same sitation, verse 27 speak about book of life, which is opened at the time of chapter 20. Entering evil people to New Jerusalem is impossible because all evil were cast into the Lake of Fire after Rev. 20.15.

Rev. 22.2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

I think the "healing" is surely about conversion, rebirth by Jesus Christ. (Mt. 13.15).  It is only speculation, but if the twelve months refers to the twelve tribes of Israel, then this verse refers only to pre AD 70 times, not for later times.

Notice that the city has twelve gates, the name of the twelve tribes of Israel written thereon. Where is the gate of gentiles in this picture? (My gate, if I can hopefully say.)

Rev. 22.15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The verse does not say evil people live continuously outside the city, but in relation with Rev. 21.8, I think it say they were cast into the Lake of Fire. When? If the evil people were judged in chapter 20, how it is possible to live one evil person outside the city, if it was coming after the Judgement?

Right, we have the possiblity that the Revelation speak about Lake of Fire different ways, once the general "casting out" at AD 70 for the evil, and later in the chapters 21 and 22, it speak about the Lake of Fire in viewpoint of personal judgement after the death. (Heb. 9.27) But it is not crystal clear, the Scripture does not differentiate global and personal judgement.

Maybe my point is not too clear. My doubt is briefly we have no clear evidence that the events of Revelation are all in correct time-sequence, it is possible that the visions about New Jerusalem are pre AD 70 reality and the most parts of chapter 20 is still in the future. Rev. 20.8 and 9 especially unclear for me.
 
Understanding the final fall of Satan in the past cause immediately go to symbolic mode at explanation of "no death, no pain, no cry, no sorrow, no pain". I can't biblically compose it, but my feeling is the understanding symbolically of these passages is the underestimation of God, who can't achieve the state of no fear, cry, sorrow and pain physically. Right, I agree that the spiritual meaning is more important, but I think the spiritual growing MUST influence the physical reality. I don't see it. If I narrow New Jerusalem to the invisible church, I don't believe they are all happy and never cry.

TIME OF SATAN BINDED

When?

We found the activity of Satan in verses:

1Ti. 5.15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. - 1Tim written at AD 63.

1Th. 2.18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us. - Thessalonians written in AD 50-51

2Co. 12.7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 2Co. 2.10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; - 2Corinthians written in AD 56


1Co. 5.5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1Co. 7.5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. - 1Co. written at AD 54

Act. 26.18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. - Paul's conversion was ca in AD 35

Act. 5.3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Full preterists say that the binding is only for gentiles, "the nations". If it is true (but very strange - jews had more less chance to win), references found in letters of Paul, who is the apostle of gentles.

The greatest doubt is coming from this verse:

Eph. 6.12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. - Ephesians written at AD 61

Why did Paul speak about powers in high places, if they were cast down and binded?

Question: when was this inactivity of the Satan?


TEMPTATIONS

I think everyone has temptations (smaller or greater). I don't see the importance of fall of Satan in this viewpoint. Before AD 70 the man was tempted by the Satan, after AD 70 we have tempted by ourself? Satan was "only" an addition to the temptations before AD 70? Ironically I feel the presents situation is more worse, I can pray to God for save me from the Satan but how I can pray to God "save me from myself"? Some preterist are trying soften this problem that they say, Satan is destroyed, but the spirit of Satan still alive. (as for example Hitler's spirit in nazism). If so, what is the difference? Instead of an evil spirit with personality, named Satan, we have now an impersonal , eternal evil spirit since AD 70? I hope not.

cheers,
Gabor

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Date:

23 Aug 2002

Time:

05:47:13

Comments

Very interesting.  Very fresh...  Thanks!

Date:

23 Aug 2002

Time:

23:10:44

Remote User:

Comments

Did not understand the point of this article? Could someone try to make it simpler??? I just don't get what he's trying to say!!!

Date:

24 Aug 2002

Time:

00:12:17

Remote User:

Comments

Satan was cast down when he was loosed. Not when he was bound - he was bound in the Gospels. --- Mark 3 27No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house. --- 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. --- I dont think that the abyss was here on earth - it was where Hades was. Most reformed people believe that the binding with a chain refers to satan being limited in his ability. We know that the gospel went out to the whole world Col 1:6 - IE the nations were not deceived. Satan was cast down during the tribulation. --- As for the Lambs book of Life. Wasnt that the book of the New Covenant. Are you a member of the New Covenant?

Date:

27 Aug 2002

Time:

02:51:10

Remote User:

Comments

From Gabor: First, it is a great surprise to see here my article (but I'm happy to see it), second it is no wonder, if anyone does not understand it. What I heard about Satan until now: 1. He is an angelic host who became evil. (This is not too biblical, see Jn. 8.44 and 1Jn. 3.8) 2. Satan is the Law, the deceiver. Make some sense, because the Law was the ACCUSER, as the law was. Make doubts when I read passages which deal with Satan as person. 3. Satan is the spirit of evil, which origin is unknown and the Satan as AD 70 not more as first century Israel! (Rev. 2.9) If this viewpoint is true, it mean that the evil does exist also today, in AD 70 was only the AGENT of evil was cast down and destroyed. opinions? Gabor

Date:

13 Sep 2002

Time:

05:52:38

Remote User:

Comments

"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out" (John 12:31). Is this a reference to satan? The Revelation contains a true message, but is difficult to interpret. We need to begin with the more narrative passages in other books. There is Nothing in the Revelation that will negate or cause problems with the other books. I don't claim to have it all figured out, but as far as I can tell satan (whoever or whatever that is) needed to be restrained in order for the Gospel to spread. Satan must have been released at some point, but only for a short season - How can satan be here today if it was a short season? I believe the consummation of the ages was around AD 70. That means satan is in the Lake of Fire. Of course, there are those who believe the serpent to be apostate Israel and it was destroyed. There are plenty of scriptures that attest to man's inherant evil nature, and they begin back in early Genesis. Romans 1:30 says that man is the inventor of evil. Paul says the carnal mind is enmity against God. Apparently we do not need a "temptor" to do evil. Flesh and blood do not enter the kingdom of God, but rebirth is of the spirit. Remember the kingdom is not observable and not of this world. We "know" one another by "fruits" of the Spirit. The problem arises when we think the scriptures predict an evil-free world, but as long as there is flesh and blood, there will be carnal minds. We will NEVER have righeousness of ourselves - it is ALWAYS in Christ - and that is a spiritual concept which must be taken on faith. The promise was for a new covenant - one in which forgiveness and everlasting life is accessible. We have that. God was interested in reconciliation of sinful man back to Himself. That was accomplished through Christ. This whole question of the continual existence of evil is based upon presuppositions that must be challenged. Hebrews says that Christ came to destroy him who had the power of death. But Christ tasted death for all men. Christ paid for sin-death and destroyed the ultimate enemy. There is no promise in the scriptures to obliterate evil itself, but to subdue it's ultimate effects of sin-death. It's the things "seen" that are temporal, but the unseen things are eternal. We need to do a re-take of our scriptural presuppositions and be very careful in our approach to the Revelation. Keep digging. I hope this helps.