POSITIONS IN THIS ARTICLE:
SOME DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES OF SYSTEMATIZED
It is important to keep in mind that many ideas and doctrines
full preterism appeals to - such as the complete end of the Old
Covenant world in AD70 - are by no means distinctive to that view.
Many non HyPs believe this as well, so one need not embrace the Hyper
Preterist system in order to endorse this view. Following
are exceptional doctrines which, so far as I've seen, are only taught by
adherents of Hyper Preterism.:
DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES TAUGHT BY STANDARD
All Bible Prophecy was Fulfilled By AD70
Atonement Incomplete at Cross ;
Complete at AD70
The Supernatural Power of Evil
Ended in AD70
The Spirit of Antichrist was
Destroyed in AD70
"The Consummation of the Ages"
Came in AD70
"The Millennium" is in the Past, From
AD30 to AD70
Nothing to be Resurrected From
in Post AD70 World ; Hades Destroyed
The Christian Age Began in AD70
; Earth Will Never End
"The Day of the Lord" was Israel's
Destruction ending in AD70
The "Second Coming" of Jesus
Christ Took Place in AD70-ish
The Great Judgment took place
in AD70 ; No Future Judgment
The Law, Death, Sin, Devil,
Hades, etc. Utterly Defeated in AD70
of the Dead and Living is Past, Having Taken
Place in AD70
The Context of the Entire Bible
is Pre-AD70 ; Not Written To Post AD70 World
DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES TAUGHT BY VARIOUS FORMS
Baptism was for Pre-AD70 Era (Cessationism)
The Lord's Prayer was for Pre-AD70
The Lord's Supper was for Pre-AD70
The Holy Spirit's Paraclete Work
Ceased in AD70 (Cessationism)
The Consummation in AD70 Caused
Church Offices to Cease (Cessationism)
The Resurrection in AD70 Changed
the "Constitutional Principle" of Marriage (Noyesism)
Israel and Humanity Delivered into
Ultimate Liberty in AD70 (TransmillennialismTM)
The Judgment in AD70 Reconciled All
of Mankind to God ; All Saved (Preterist Universalism)
Adam's Sin No Longer Imputed in
Post AD70 World ; No Need to be Born Again (Preterist Universalism)
When Jesus Delivered the Kingdom to
the Father in AD70, He Ceased Being The Intermediary (Pantelism/Comprehensive
The Book of Genesis is an
Apocalypse; is About Creation of First Covenant Man, not First Historical
Man (Covenantal Preterism)
An Open Letter to Moderate Preterists
By John Divito
Dear Brothers in Christ,
I am glad to have the opportunity to write to you, as your work in eschatology has helped me immensely in my study of the last things. I have not yet reached enough conclusions to hold to a certain position, so I hope you will remember that I am not your enemy. In this letter I am going to bring up some points I find problematic to your view, and hopefully you can give me biblical answers. Let me also further declare I am not a full preterist. As I already said, I am still in the stage of searching for the truth.
Nevertheless, I still see some problems with your view. In chapter eight of
The Last Days According to Jesus by R.C. Sproul, the author deals with identifying the Antichrist. As a part of this chapter, Dr. Sproul looks at the man of lawlessness spoken of in II Thessalonians 2. He first quotes verses three through eleven and then goes on to demonstrate that this individual was a contemporary of Paul. Cited with approval are B.B. Warfield and Gary DeMar, who also believe that the man of sin lived during the first century. I would venture to say most postmillennialists and moderate preterists agree. My problem is this: what about the first two verses if the second chapter? The lead-in to the man of lawlessness is as follows, "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come." (II Thessalonians 2:1-2) Paul then goes on to talk about the necessity of some falling away and the man of sin being revealed first. So then, why would R.C. Sproul leave out these first two verses? Was it just an oversight? Or, did he see it as problematic to connect the contemporary man of lawlessness to the coming of Christ and the gathering?
I would not think so, because Dr. Sproul did seem to say the coming of Christ and gathering happened during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Matthew 24:30-31 reads, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." The author examines this passage in pages 41 through 46 of his book, and while he notes some problems he has with J. Stuart Russellís application of the passage, he seems to agree with Russellís conclusions. If so, then Christ did come and have a gathering at the destruction at Jerusalem. Once again, my question remains. Why then did he leave out II Thessalonians 2:1-2?
I am convinced it was not simply an oversight. To admit that these first two verses happened along with the destruction of Jerusalem provides certain problems. As one can easily see, II Thessalonians was the second letter written to the Thessalonians. While there is some scholarly debate over the order of these letters and the authorship, most conservative scholars attest to this order. If this is the case, then the Thessalonians received the following words from Paul first, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend to heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (I Thessalonians 4:15-16) This is the well-known section dealing with the rapture and the resurrection of the dead. Notice that these events are to happen at "the coming of the Lord" (verse 15). Now, is the coming of the Lord spoken of here different than the coming of the Lord spoken of in II Thessalonians 2:1? I would imagine Dr. Sproul would have to state this, since he spends an entire chapter (chapter seven, when is the resurrection?) defending the idea that the resurrection of the dead and the rapture are both yet in the future. I assume he would say Matthew 24:30-31 and II Thessalonians 2:1 are with Christís coming in judgement in 70 AD, while His coming in I Thessalonians 4:15 is yet in the future. But could this be the case?
Letís step into the shoes of the Thessalonians for a minute. The first letter we receive from Paul describes that when Christ comes all Christians will join Him, both living and dead. This was a great comfort since many were worried that those who died would not join Christ at His coming. Paul then goes on to tell us that the Day of the Lord will come upon us as a thief in the night (5:2). We need to always be on guard and constantly ready Ė "let us watch and be sober" (5:6). Many of us realize that the time is near! Some decide to quit whatever work they are doing to wait. Others, believing it is just around the corner, sell off all of their possessions and give away all of their money. We may have even heard that the Day of the Lord has come. It is here! Paul once again desires to straighten us out, and writes his second letter to us. In it, he speaks of ways we know of Christís coming and our gathering to Him. The apostle says to not be fooled; that the falling away must come first and the man of sin must be revealed. Therefore, do not be idle, there is work to be done! Do not give up on this life, there is still time left! Can anyone here doubt that the coming Paul deals with in II Thessalonians 2:1 is the same as the coming he already described in I Thessalonians 4:15? He seems to be correcting those Thessalonians who understood his first letter wrongly.
If we are to say these two comings are separate events, then I would have to argue that Paul misled the Thessalonians. Nowhere does he differentiate the two; nowhere does he let the reader know that he is speaking of two different comings and two different gatherings. Obviously, we cannot accept the idea that Paul misinformed the Thessalonians. The only other solution is to understand that Paul was speaking of the same event. Any division between the two then is arbitrary and seems to be done to protect oneís presumptions.
So, if these two sections of scripture are dealing with the same event, then only one of two conclusions can be reached. First, they happened at Christís coming at the destruction of Jerusalem. If this is the case, then the full preterists are right. The rapture and the resurrection of the dead have already happened. All of bible prophecy has been fulfilled. The other alternative is that Christ has not yet come as Paul described, and we are still awaiting his arrival. This also means that the man of lawlessness has yet to be revealed, and that he was not a contemporary of Paulís (and he may not be our contemporary either). This admission destroys postmillennial idea that the worst for the church is behind us and that we can look forward to a "Christianized" world, and it also eliminates the moderate preteristís answer to the imminence problem in eschatology. By Sproulís and others testimony, Paul certainly seemed to indicate that the man of sin was to come shortly after Paulís letters. So, what is the answer? What did Christ and Paul mean?
I do not pretend to have all of the answers. As I said at the beginning, I am searching. However Sproul and other moderate preterists tend to bring up more problems than solutions. This is ultimately the reason for this letter. If I am wrong in my analysis, then please correct me. Show me exegetically how Paul was communicating two different comings of Christ and gatherings to the Thessalonians. Otherwise, the only option I see available is to forsake your understanding of eschatology in favor of either full preterism or a- or pre- millennialism.
Please feel free to write me with your answers or comments. I only seek to understand the bible better, and to know Christ. Thank you for taking the time to read this letter.
Because of His grace,
What do YOU think ?
Submit Your Comments For Posting Here
Comment Box Disabled For Security
Date: 14 Sep 2005
Your observations are correct. Paul was inspired and led into ALL TRUTH by
the Holy Spirit. He didn't differentiate between two comings because there
was ONLY ONE COMING! It happened!
Date: 09 Nov 2005
It is all the same event and I personally do not believe in a rapture. I
believe that those who do focus on the wrong word, when going to the Greek.
I also do not believe in a physically established kingdom on Earth.
I'm going to paste in part of a book that I myself am writing. It is
addressed to the "end timers" (those who believe what is typical in the
churches today about everything being in the future and Jesus ridign a
cloud, etc.), so please, just ignore whatever isn't relevant to your
position and apply whatever is, since as I said, it isn't really addressed
to Preterists, but it does respond to your questions. And if nothing else,
you will probably find it useful for rebutting end timers' doctrines. :)
I am involved in usenet (alt.bible & alt.christnet.christianlife for
example) and what a difference there! I am constantly insulted and libeled,
when I bring up Preterist views! Frankly, it is because they never have a
response and cannot refute what I have said and all they know, is the
standard claims that they were taught to state. It is sad to see brothers
and sisters in Christ so mislead and unwilling to examine their doctrines in
the light of Scripture!
I am convinced that it is ego and vanity (wanting the Bible to be all about
them). I even had one fella say to me, "If it's not about us, then what
good is the Bible?". (:
As for me, I personally accept only two labels.
2) Pastor (Pastor Dave Raymond)
But for this discussion, you can call me a "full Preterist". :)
Anyway, here is the text. If it is helpful, please share it, but remember
that it is copyrighted. I say that for the purpose of my book and not to
deny anyone benefit from it.
Here ya go... :)
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first:
The first thing to look at, is the fact that the end
timers are claiming that everyone will see Jesus return and everyone will
hear the trump of God and see the dead rise, etc.. But they don't realize
what a contradiction they teach, considering that the Rapturists also claim
that believers will disappear and the world won't know what happened. So
now we should ask some questions, to see how well your beliefs hold up in
the light of Scripture.
If it is the dead who are raised, doesn't it make sense that it is the dead
who will hear the "trump" of God? Note that v17 starts with, "THEN",
meaning that the trump is something for the dead to hear, not the living.
This happens (the trump) and that happens (the dead rise) and "THEN we who
are alive and remain...".
Since the Rapturists claim that our disappearance will be all of the sudden
and without warning and that the world won't know what happened, let me ask
you, wouldn't a loud trump, heard 'round the world, be considered a warning?
Now if they claim that only the saved will hear it,
then they have left the literalism that they claim
about this appearance being visual and the trump being heard around the
world and so, defeat their own argument of literalism in this passage.
Besides, they say we are supposed to be suddenly taken. It isn't that
sudden, if everyone on Earth heard the trump and then had to wait for the
dead to rise and all this is going on for all to see and yet, the world
won't know what happened and we will be taken all of the sudden and they
will be puzzled as to what happened?
I don't think that works out logically, do you? :)
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the
Now the first big problem here in taking this passage the way they do, is
that if it were as they say, we would be stuck in, or just above the
atmosphere forever and so would Jesus. It doesn't allow for Him, nor us, to
go to Heaven, nor to return to Earth. It says that we'll be in the air with
Him, "FOREVER". I'm sure they don't believe that, so the way they read it
must be wrong. Again, they must abandon the approach to this passage that
they use, which is actually two approaches that contradict each other.
This is the verse (v17) that the Rapturists use to
claim that the Rapture is Biblical. They claim that we will be caught up
into the air and I'll agree that the passage says that. But does it really
say that? :)
Well, yes, in English, but not in the original Greek. At least not that we
will rise into the air above the Earth. As I said, Tim LaHaye, et al, have
you focusing on the wrong word ("caught up") and since they note the Greek
for the words, "caught up", it is only logical that we should heed what the
Greek actually says.
The Greeks had more than one word, that translates into the English word,
Now, if that air was the air in the sky, he would have used a different
"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and
the birds of the air (ouranos) have nests; but the Son of man hath not where
to lay his head." - Matthew 8:20
Ouranos = air - (the idea of elevation); the sky; by
extension heaven (as the abode of God)
But instead, Paul used a different word...
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in
the air (aer): and so shall we ever be with the Lord." - 1 Thessalonians
Aer = air - (to breathe unconsciously, that is,
respire; by analogy to blow); air (as naturally
The original Greek word used in this verse, does not
mean the air we look up and see way up in the sky, but rather, it implies
our breath and the air immediately surrounding us. The transliterated word
is "aer" and means... to breathe unconsciously, that is, respire; by analogy
to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)
Circumambient = Encompassing on all sides; surrounding.
It is discussing the air that we are breathing and that which is immediately
surrounding us (in Jewish thought, up to about 10 feet around us and
remember, they wrote in Greek, but they were Jews). Will the end timers now
change their claim and say that Jesus would appear for everyone to see,
right in front of them (within 10 feet of them), at the same time, since
that is what would be necessary for everyone to see Him at the same time?
Will there be 6 billion copies of Jesus, so that everyone can see Him at the
same time, in the "air" that the verse actually describes? In order to
stick with the type of approach they use for this verse, they must, in order
to be honest about it, change their belief and claim that 6 billion copies
of Jesus will appear. Remember, they brought the Greek into this, so
now they are bound to what it says. :)
The truth is, that they would be "caught up" in the
sense that they became changed and would never die
(sleep) and the air under discussion was the air around them. The
difference here was that there would be no more death (sleep) for
believers. It would be instant translation upon death, instead of sleeping,
once Jesus returned. And Jesus did return, in 70 A.D..
Whoever remained until the return of Jesus, would still be alive here on
Earth (when that event took place upon Jesus' return in 70 A.D.), but now
death would be permanently done away with. At least for believers. The
rest would face the second death. But remember, Paul said this could not
happen, until Jesus returned and then death would lose its sting.
"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy
victory?" - 1 Corinthians 15:55
We must also remember Jesus' statement...
20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God
should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with
21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom
of God is within you.
The end timers make the same mistake that the Pharisees did, demanding that
God set up His kingdom here on Earth, when Jesus said you would NOT be able
to see the kingdom of God coming here on Earth. It is within you. It is a
spiritual matter and so, instead of whipping out passages now and saying,
"What about this?", they should realize that all they would be doing, is
trying to pit Scripture against Scripture, trying to make them contradict
each other. The passage above is clear and easy to understand. Therefore,
instead of trying to make Jesus say something else, see if your
understanding of the other passages is questionable.
As for 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2, this was written in the 1st century, not the
21st. So why do they pretend that Paul wrote it to them?
Note: Caps are used for emphasis and not for shouting.
The end timers (those who believe in the return of
Christ being future and the Rapture) like to make
claims about what the passages above mean and that they demonstrate that
Jesus did not return yet, because the Bible says so. That's not an honest
approach to the text. What if Jesus returned tomorrow? The Bible would
still exist. Should we hold it up to Jesus and tell Him He can't really be
here, because the Bible says He has not returned yet? :) Obviously that
would be foolish, but it demonstrates perfectly that a Biblical text has a
time frame. The question is, what is that time frame?
First, we have to agree that Jesus and the Apostles
taught the truth. That there are no errors in
doctrine. If someone does not agree with that, then
there is no point in discussion, because they are now cutting out the parts
of the word of God that disagree with their man made doctrine, instead of
the other way around.
The Bible is the inspired, infallible word of the
living God. If they are not in line with that
thinking, then they need to get on your knees and pray, or throw their
Bibles away, because if there are errors in it, then they can't know what
you can trust in it. Picking and choosing what is right and what is wrong,
is just their way of saying that they know better than Jesus and the
Apostles and they make themselves God.
Now that we have that straight, I will first show a few other quotes from
the letters to the same church and then I will show that the passages above
do not say what they think they do, as this "we are in the last days and the
Rapture is coming" doctrine is quite easily disproved. I know that
statement shocks some, but they should pray first and then read on, trying
as best they can to put any doctrinal biases aside while doing so. Most
people simply don't read the words in the Bible carefully.
So let's see what else Paul taught that same church, in the same letter.
Then let's completely dispel this idea that people have about the passages
First, some other quotes from the same letter, which
show that it is clear that Paul was teaching that Jesus would return in
their lifetime (at least some of them would still be alive)...
"For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in
the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?" - 1 Thessalonians 2:19
They (the Thessalonians) would be in the presence of
the Lord Jesus, AT HIS COMING.
Think that could mean that they would be returning with Jesus, as part of
the saints that would be coming with Him? Read on...
1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
12) And the Lord make you to increase and abound in
love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13) To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before
God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his
They (the Thessalonians) would be "unblamable" at the coming of the Lord
Jesus, with all His saints. Note, it does not say that they would come WITH
Jesus, as part of the saints, but rather, that they would be unblamable, AT
HIS COMING, when He brought the saints with Him.
"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as
- 1 Thessalonians 5:5
Note that Paul told THEM that the day would not
overtake THEM as a thief.
"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the
Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his
mighty angels," - 2 Thessalonians 1:7
Note, that those who are troubled in that church in
Thessalonica) would rest with them (the Apostles) when Jesus returned.
Now before commenting in your mind, or getting ready to respond to me by
telling me that this may simply mean whomever is alive at the time He
returns, you must first understand and acknowledge that this letter was
written as a response to a letter that they wrote to Paul. That means that
Paul was responding to the Thessalonians, answering THEIR questions, NOT
ours. When he uses the word "you", he means it directed toward the people
he is writing to. Would you write a letter to someone, answering their
questions and then when they read it, expect them to think that it really
means someone thousands of years in the future? Of course not, so why
expect that here? :)
And let me ask you this... when I am posting this
message and I just asked YOU if YOU would write a
letter like that, did you think I was really addressing people thousands of
years from now? Of course not.
There is much that can be said about the passage, such as the fact that Paul
said that the iniquity is already working (in the 1st century) and the
falling away, which did occur in the first century and is even noted in the
NT. Something the end timers skip right over. But the meat of the message
from the end timers, is that we should take those passages as meaning that
the day of Christ had not come yet. That is what I will address and make a
few points about. It is very important to remember two things, while reading
1) It was written to a 1st century church, in the 1st century and so thus,
must not be blindly applied to any century we want to apply it to.
2) The end timers claim that this "day of the Lord"
means Jesus returning in judgment and that it is a
world wide event. How could the Thessalonians be
confused whether or not the Lord had come, when all
would supposedly "see Jesus riding on a cloud" and it would be as,
"lightning, from the east to the west"? The fact is, some false teachers
had entered the church there (whether by letter, or letter and in person)
and claimed that Jesus had already returned, but ask yourself, how could
anyone possibly get away with teaching that and confuse them, if it was
going to be a world wide event, that no one could possibly miss, especially
with heaven and earth passing away (which end timers believe is a literal
statement)? That is a good, logical reason to assume that it was not going
to be a world wide destructive event and that Jesus used commonly known
Jewish symbolism in His teaching.
"Come now and let us reason together, saith the Lord"
Anyway, on with the comments...
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Now while people try to claim that this verse has
something to do with the end of the world, or a
Rapture, etc., let's look at this logically. They
received a letter, or a word from someone who claimed to be Apostles
(probably forged with Paul's name and the name of other Apostles), saying
that the end had come. So they wrote to Paul, to see if this were true.
The letter, or word, obviously purported to be from the Apostles. Now let's
see where that leaves us...
END: They wouldn't have thought the END OF THE WORLD
had come, since they obviously would have noticed that, don't ya think?. :)
There's one part of the man made doctrine in the trash bucket. :)
RAPTURE: They also wouldn't think it had anything to do with a Rapture,
since if it did, why would they write to Paul about it? Didn't they think
he would be raptured and gone, if he told them such a thing would happen and
they thought it had already occurred? Therefore, they wouldn't have written
to him about some rapture, since they would have figured he wouldn't be
there to receive the letter. :) They also would have been wondering why
they weren't raptured. The fact is, that they were Christians and they
would have known, had some "Rapture" (as these end timers preach it)
occurred, they wouldn't be there to write the letter, so that wouldn't even
be a question. :) There's another piece of the man made doctrine in the
trash bucket. :)
No, it isn't discussing the end of the world, nor some rapture. They are
referring to the end, which was the judgment and destruction of Jerusalem,
which they had heard happened and the "gathering" wasn't about a
disappearance of people from the planet and Paul wrote back to reassure them
that the end had not come yet. The "end", the "last days", etc., were "at
hand", because what Jesus prophesied about, was the judgment and destruction
of Jerusalem (and He said that's what it was). The Scriptures are not
discussing a final judgment, nor a Rapture here. The end timers are mixing
up two different things and this comes from a lack of understanding of
language and imagery used by the Holy men of God throughout the Old
Testament. Paul was a Pharisee of the strictest sect, yet people today
expect that this played no part in how he wrote. That's ridiculous.
This is what I mean when I say that we need to look at the other passages in
light of Biblical truth and not man made doctrines.
What these people don't even consider, is that no one is given a second
chance at salvation, in that God will not appear before them and then say
that now they have to make a decision, which is what would have to happen,
should this Rapture occur. So what do these people do? They claim that He
returns invisibly the first time (which is really the Second Coming folks,
if you know how to count) and that then He will return again, later,
visibly, which means that they actually believe in THREE "Comings" of the
Lord Jesus Christ. Has anyone ever bothered to count these before? :) Oh,
but wait, let me guess, since He isn't visible and didn't touch down on
Earth, that one doesn't count, right? :)
So they wait, thinking that we are now in the last days and that "soon", "at
hand" and "near", which were written in the first century, don't mean what
they say. They then go out and buy commentaries that stroke their ego and
their vanity, by telling them how these words can really just mean, "at some
time in the future, but not necessarily soon, so the Bible really is about
you". The reality is, when you say that "at hand", "soon" and "near" can
mean any amount of time, because the Lord isn't bound by time, you're only
saying that they mean nothing at all. Let's apply that rule to the whole
Bible and see what happens. The fact is, while time may mean nothing to
God, it does mean something to us and God used humans to write the Bible to
be read by other humans, who do understand time frames when they read them
and expect that God is being honest with them, when He communicates a human
The fact is, that if a Rapture occurred, it would mean that people are given
a second chance, since they would know exactly when the judgment would be
coming, to the day, even though Jesus said no one knows the day, nor the
hour. This idea is not supported by Scripture, but rather, it contradicts
It is obvious to anyone who reads the New Testament,
that Jesus taught that He would return within the same generation of people
standing there (Matthew 16:27-28; 24:34). It is also obvious that Paul
taught the immanency of Christ's return and that he expected it to happen in
their lifetime. So the question to the end timers is simply: "Do you
really think the Master would allow Paul to teach this if it were not
accurate and also allow Paul to claim to be teaching what he (Paul) learned
from Jesus Himself?". Their answer to this question shall be the judge of
the accuracy of their beliefs. Either they believe Jesus when He said He
would return before all of the Apostles died, or they call Him a liar.
And don't let them make claims about it being the
Transfiguration. He said that SOME would still be
alive and NONE had died at the time of the Transfiguration. And don't let
them try to tell you
about "double fulfillment". Is heaven and earth going to literally pass
away twice? :) And if it happened once already (literally), then where is
this supposed literal earthly kingdom that the end timers preach about?
They have failed to take into proper consideration the following passages
27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his
angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Note that this verse speaks of the judgment. There is no mistaking that.
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not
taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Note that He clearly states that some STANDING THERE
would NOT die before His return.
There is no playing with the word "generation" as some people try to do with
Matthew 24:34, claiming that it means, "the Jewish race", or "an age",
etc.. That's a load of hogwash! The word means just what it says.
Anyway, take a look at the following passage and then let me ask you a
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." - Matthew
If this "heaven and earth passing away" statement is a literal event and it
hasn't happened yet and Jesus said that until it did, not one jot nor tittle
of the Law would pass, how come we are not still under the Law? Doesn't it
make sense that it either passed, or we are still under the Law?
And they think that the Tribulation could not have
occurred yet, because nothing that horrible occurred
yet, they should think again. That is a false
statement and comes from ignorance. They have no clue what happened in the
1st century and yet, make this claim. When is the last time you heard of
people being covered in tar and such and hung from posts for miles on roads
and then lit on fire, while still alive, to be used for street lamps? And
what of the fighting over babies, to cook for food and mass murder and
beheadings and torture that went on in the few years before the destruction
of Jerusalem? That's just a taste of what went on. And lest we forget,
Jesus' words were fulfilled, to the letter during that period of time.
Now doesn't it make sense that all other passages must be interpreted in
light of those statements?
Their belief system does not hold up under Biblical
Now I know the obvious question is, "If Jesus already returned and all that
happened, then what good is the Bible to us?".
It is plenty good! God said, "Thou shalt not kill".
That is an ancient text, but isn't it still good today?
The fact is, that while these folks keep claiming Jesus is coming and He
never does, the atheists laugh at them. And while they claim people are
converted because of the fear of His return, how many fall away, because
they are tired of hearing current events being told as being in the Bible
and that Jesus is returning soon and never see it?
You see, I can point to my Bible and I can show how the prophecies were
fulfilled. How Jesus kept His promise. How there is no more death. We are
instantly taken to Heaven at death. We do not "sleep", waiting for His
return. I also have no problem texts to deal with now. For example, I
don't have to try to get around the following passage...
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these
things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
He said, "this generation". No, He didn't say, "The
generation alive at the time when this happens.". He
said, "this generation". The problem is with how
people take v3. Folks think (due to bad translation of the word) that the
disciples asked about the "end of the world". They didn't. They asked about
the "end of THE AGE". The Greek has a word for the physical world (in its
entirety). It is "kosmos". That word is not used in v3. The word there, is
"aion", which means simply, "an age". Note some other translations and
you'll see the words "the age" there in v3.
BTW, I also highly recommend taking a look at the LITV. It is available
free with e-Sword (which is also free).
Thanks and let me know what you think. Also, I did not see any way to sign
up for forums here, so I will probably never see any responses. But if
someone could email me at firstname.lastname@example.org and point me to them, or
just to let me know what you think of this post, I would be much grateful!
Date: 10 Mar 2010
The insurmountable problem for the full-preterist position is the amount of
space given over to describing the resurrection in the New Testament. It is
clear that the resurrection is meant as a "firstfruits", that is the
resurrection of at least the faithful will be in the same manner. Dead
bodies raised to physical life "powered by the spirit"(the accurate
translation of spiritual). Jesus had a physical body powered by the Spirit
at his resurrection. We are still waiting for the resurrection. Any
interpretation of Biblical prophecy must take account of the nature of the
resurrection attested to in the Bible (and other sources).
Biblical prophecy in the Old Testament was seen to be true if events
transpired as intimated - however a fuller later fulfilment was expected and
anticipated (eg Isaiah's prediction of a King who would be a Wonderful
Counsellor etc.) Jesus' prophecy of his coming at 70AD came true thus the
future physical resurrection will come true - this is a possible
interpretation, and it fits those awkward fact of the physical nature of
Jesus'resurrection, showing what the resurrection of the faithful will be
Pastor Dave Raymond